Penn swimming in hot water???

[CP87]

Totally disagree. When you do that you now have to take all athletes and divide them by an arbitrary metric. DNA isn't arbitrary. It's clearly observable, relevant, and simple. Again, well over 99.9% of these issues aren't a matter of testosterone level, it's a biological male (XY) dominating an XX sport on their psychological whim.

You are wrong about the bolded part. DSD has been a much more prevalent issue over the last 3 decades in international sport. The transgender athlete is much more recent (last 5 years, or so), and there have been very few examples. Moving forward, as society becomes more accepting of individuals with gender dysphoria, I could see that becoming a bigger issue (we certainly hear about it much more these days). But to date, dealing with DSD athletes has been a much more common challenge.

I need to correct an error from my previous posts: I raised the issue of the masculinized XX female, and the need to protect the female class from their inherent advantages. As I look more deeply into this, there are no restrictions on a masculinized XX female DSD (typically from congenital adrenal hyperplasia) completing in the female class. So, that issue I raised is moot (point in favor of your argument).

We are in complete agreement that transgender women competing in female sport should not be allowed (at the highest level).

 

[CP87]

I do think we're on the same page, just disagree on how to go about it. For perspective, I'm a moron...always keep that in mind when engaging with me.

I think our biggest area of misunderstanding is that you are trying to tackle the issue of transgender women in female sport, and I am looking at the more complicated picture of sexual determination, conferred advantage, and how to address things globally.

Simply from the perspective of transgender women in female sport, I think the XX/XY rule would mostly work, although testing for presence of SRY gene would be more thorough (to deal with the extremely rare situation when the SRY ends up on the X chromosome due to errant genetic recombination).

I do see transgender girls in sport being a growing issue in the near future, and there is no perfect solution that satisfies fairness and inclusion. Even many who believe the experience these transgender girls are describing and believe they should be treated with compassion are not in favor of them competing in girls' sport. It is probably time to consider 4 divisions: boys, girls, transgender boys, and transgender girls. I don't think this would work for team sports as no school will have enough from a transgender class to field a team in any sport, but it would at least open an avenue for participation and competition in sports like T&F and swimming. That is better than nothing, and the unfairness of disallowing transgender girls from team sports is probably a smaller issue than the unfairness of allowing someone with an unfair advantage to compete against girls. It might also protect the transgender girl from the sad but inevitable hate they would receive from competing against biological girls, while still allowing them to be part of a sport and a team.

 

[CP87]

Here is another interesting take on the topic and some of its challenges:

Integrating Transwomen and Female Athletes with Differences of Sex Development (DSD) into Elite Competition: The FIMS 2021 Consensus Statement - PMC

Sport is historically designated by the binary categorization of male and female that conflicts with modern society. Sport’s governing bodies should consider reviewing rules determining the eligibility of athletes in the female category as there may ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Fryowa]

It is probably time to consider 4 divisions: boys, girls, transgender boys, and transgender girls. I don't think this would work for team sports as no school will have enough from a transgender class to field a team in any sport, but it would at least open an avenue for participation and competition in sports like T&F and swimming.

I think it'd work great in T&F, XC, swimming, wrestling, and so on.

In HS track we have 2 athletes in our conference that race ambulatory and wheelchair. Most of the time it's just them, but that's the breaks. At state this year I think there were 6 wheelchair boys, 5 or 6 ambulatory, and 2 wheel chair/4 ambulatory girls. I'd imagine if there were 2 TG divisions you'd have a bunch of kids to run in Iowa at least in track/XC. I'm not as close to swimming or wrestling at the HS to speak on that.

How many TG kids probably don't go out for track/XC because they don't want to deal with people yelling at them. There would still be assholes even if they had their own division but I'd think it'd be less.

 

[CP87]

I think it'd work great in T&F, XC, swimming, wrestling, and so on.

In HS track we have 2 athletes in our conference that race ambulatory and wheelchair. Most of the time it's just them, but that's the breaks. At state this year I think there were 6 wheelchair boys, 5 or 6 ambulatory, and 2 wheel chair/4 ambulatory girls. I'd imagine if there were 2 TG divisions you'd have a bunch of kids to run in Iowa at least in track/XC. I'm not as close to swimming or wrestling at the HS to speak on that.

How many TG kids probably don't go out for track/XC because they don't want to deal with people yelling at them. There would still be assholes even if they had their own division but I'd think it'd be less.

The ambulatory class is fairly recent, and that was added pretty seamlessly once it become clear there was a need for it. I think incorporation of transgender classes would be similar.

 

[Chickenlounge]

Athletic contests should be separated by chromosome groups, period. No ambiguity, and no need for any discussion of gender identity or social issues whatsoever. If XX wants to compete in XY that’s fine, XY not allowed in XX. There is indisputable scientific evidence that XY is naturally bigger/stronger/faster. Create a new division for people who gender-identify with a group other than their biological one. Run a few extra races at track meets and be done with it.

No ambiguity, no argument of unfairness, issue solved. Let the NCAA or high school pay the $200 for the one-time test and be done with this whole issue.

No more XXs winning the XY state 200m and 400m championship by 7 seconds. Let people choose their gender, but no one can “choose” chromosome group.

Put this ridiculous issue to bed once and for all.

It doesn't work that way. It's not just XX and XY. There are many nuances that are not address in the binary boy/girl penis/vagina thing.

Beyond X & Y: Chromosomes and Sex Organs - Scienceline

Beyond X & Y: Chromosomes and Sex Organs, a few ways of being intersex and the how sex chromosome genetic expression can vary.

scienceline.org

What Are Sex Chromosomes (XX and XY Chromosomes)?

Sex chromosomes are the genetic elements that define a person's biological sex. Learn about the XX and XY chromosomes, the sex determination system, and other chromosome combinations.

www.webmd.com

Beyond XX and XY: The Extraordinary Complexity of Sex Determination

A host of factors figure into whether someone is female, male or somewhere in between

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Fryowa]

It doesn't work that way. It's not just XX and XY. There are many nuances that are not address in the binary boy/girl penis/vagina thing.

Beyond X & Y: Chromosomes and Sex Organs - Scienceline

Beyond X & Y: Chromosomes and Sex Organs, a few ways of being intersex and the how sex chromosome genetic expression can vary.

scienceline.org

What Are Sex Chromosomes (XX and XY Chromosomes)?

Sex chromosomes are the genetic elements that define a person's biological sex. Learn about the XX and XY chromosomes, the sex determination system, and other chromosome combinations.

www.webmd.com

Beyond XX and XY: The Extraordinary Complexity of Sex Determination

A host of factors figure into whether someone is female, male or somewhere in between

www.scientificamerican.com

Read the whole thread. Already discussed at length.

My response to it was that XX/XY as the metric would address all but less than a thousandth of a percent of the population and is therefore much better than what we have now and will adversely affect far, far fewer people.

The issue causing chaos is transgender biological males participating in biological female sporting events. Not the rest of the outliers.