HerkeyHawk
Banned
Lol not very often a dual is decided in the first 2:00. wtf Gilman?
Minnesota
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HerkeyHawk
Banned
OMG were f'ing pathetic. There needs to be some serious changes. We're not even fun to watch anymore.
I'm not usually into singling out one person in a team sport. But technically, wrestling is an individual sport, where the performance of each individual as an individual is what allows the team to win.
In that light, I'm SO disappointed in the performance of DSJ. For someone who lost his previous match, and someone who, as a Senior, is supposed to provide leadership, his loss really ended up being the difference today. I'm still sickened by the first match, although the young man is only a freshman and will learn. And I'm SO impressed by the victories by Dziewa and Telford. But the fact that they were only consolation prizes is on DSJ.
But congrats to Minnesota. After losing to Michigan the other night, you knew they would bring their "A"-game., and they did. And still, we came within a late loss by a defending national champion of taking this dual.
In that light, I'm SO disappointed in the performance of DSJ. For someone who lost his previous match, and someone who, as a Senior, is supposed to provide leadership, his loss really ended up being the difference today. I'm still sickened by the first match, although the young man is only a freshman and will learn. And I'm SO impressed by the victories by Dziewa and Telford. But the fact that they were only consolation prizes is on DSJ.
But congrats to Minnesota. After losing to Michigan the other night, you knew they would bring their "A"-game., and they did. And still, we came within a late loss by a defending national champion of taking this dual.
Ramos?? You've got to be kidding. The Ramos of this afternoon we never saw once last year. Suddenly, he's wrestling scared. He and DSJ are neck-and-neck for the award of the most disappointing end to what had looked like a great career at Iowa. Neither one of those men are embracing what it is supposed to mean to be a Senior.
I do agree that Sammy Brooks did a nice job, even in a loss.
I think you're underestimating Tony's opponent. Thorn is the type of matchup nightmare that has plagued Ramos. Tall, lanky, strong and he has a motor. I thought Tony did really well. I agree he hasn't wrestled as aggressive as last year, but to me he almost appears smaller than last year. It just seems like he's getting dwarfed again, like he was earlier in his career.
I'm really disappointed in our S&C department, but that's another topic.
Agree. Very painful to watch. It wouldn't bother me if the Hawks got beat but were at least initiating TDs, near fall pts, and providing an entertaining product. I believe against Minny they had a total of 5 TDs with only one of those coming in the 1st period and had zero back pts for the entire meet. I remember when if Terry, Tom, Zap, etc. didn't each get 3-4 TDs in their match we were somewhat upset with their performance. Times certainly have changed.
DesMoinesHawki
Well-Known Member
I think I now know how Nebraska football fans from the 80s and 90s now feel -- we used to dominate and now, everyone has caught up to us. Iowa used to just dominate in wrestling. We used to be what Penn State is today. We racked up points; we never stopped; we were the constant agressors.
Now, we see lots of 2-1, 3-2, 5-3-type matches. Ramos is by the far the most agrressive wrestler in the lineup. It used to be we had 7 or 8 Ramos' in the starting lineup. Will always love Iowa wrestling.
I was talking to my 76 year old dad yesterday ... Obvious comment but it sort of stuck with me: "These sure aren't Gable-type teams."
Maybe, too, like Nebraska football fans, we just have to accept that yes, we are still a good wrestling program ... but others are catching us ... PSU, Ohio State ... Michigan ... teams who are bringing in top recruits ... recruits we used to get ...
Now, we see lots of 2-1, 3-2, 5-3-type matches. Ramos is by the far the most agrressive wrestler in the lineup. It used to be we had 7 or 8 Ramos' in the starting lineup. Will always love Iowa wrestling.
I was talking to my 76 year old dad yesterday ... Obvious comment but it sort of stuck with me: "These sure aren't Gable-type teams."
Maybe, too, like Nebraska football fans, we just have to accept that yes, we are still a good wrestling program ... but others are catching us ... PSU, Ohio State ... Michigan ... teams who are bringing in top recruits ... recruits we used to get ...
Agree with all of the above. Actually makes further appreciate how Great Coach Gable actually was!
PS....Also watched the meet with my 75 yr old father and he is to the point with the current team where he doesn't even get upset anymore......it is what it is.
It is not just that others are catching up, is that watching this and the last few Iowa teams wrestle, that is NOT Iowa wrestling, that is the boring BS we always complained about when other teams do it..
nationalchamps
Well-Known Member
Lickliter-esque performance....
Ohio St and Michigan have been "catching" us for years. Until they get HCs who can turn mediocre wrestlers into title contenders, they won't surpass us. When DT and ER graduate, watch how PSU comes back to the pack. Look at their lineup after this year:
Mega: not a bonus machine, Gilman has what it takes to beat him
Gulibon: Jimmy the great is 11-9 right now, Clark will be a top contender at this weight next year
ZR: not a bonus machine against top wrestlers (I'll give him a pass, since he's a TF), however still better than JD
AA: he can bonus, but gas tank problems will always haunt him, and I think BG is going to get him by next year
DA: not a bonus machine, but better than whoever we put out there next year (sorenson?)
165: don't know, don't care Moore has this
Brown: ok, you got me, he's a stud
184: don't know, don't care Brooks has this
MM: Is probably going to be a bonus machine, however Burak will be no slouch
JL: decent wrestler, Telford will out pace him.
See not all doom and gloom.
Nebraska football is nowhere near what they were, and Iowa is a title contender. We could very well AA at every single weight.
homes
Well-Known Member
This comment, and others, begs the question - Why has Iowa's wrestling style changed?
bluemolson14
Well-Known Member
I think several of us need to back off the ledge and stop thinking about jumping. I will admit, I too was disapointed in Saturday's results (as I have been a few times this season). I think we are a better team than Minny and will show it later in the season at both Big Tens as well as the national tourneys. Regarding Saturday, keep in mind we were upset not once but twice and still won 5 matches. Does Telford win that match if the meet isnt out of reach? I dont know, but he took a quality shot at tough time against a 2-timer and wins the match... Isnt that what most all of us have been wanting him to do, open up, if even just a bit? Evans wins a tough (albeit little action) match against one of his toughest opponents. St John and Gilman get caught at really bad times and and we lose the meet due to it. I am not happy about it, but it happens and we need to move on and hope they learn from it.
But the dicussion at hand is whether or not Iowa's style has changed. I am afraid to say that maybe it has, but the question is why? I have said several times on this board that it isnt just Iowa that has changed, but rather wrestling in general. Do any of you remember how Brands wrestled in high school? And college and subsequently the international level? He(and Terry as well) was intensity personified and in my opinion he was as active as any wrestler we have ever had at Iowa(I think this is hard to argue if you were around to watch him). Now with that said, how many of you honestly think his perspective on wrestling has changed into the slow moving, low intensity, “react don’t attack†style of wrestling a lot of us are complaining about? The thing is guys, is that there was a whole lot more “activity†from a lot of wrestlers back then, and I don’t just mean other Iowa guys, but across the country(yes we were without a doubt, as a program the most active). So, I for one say Brands’ perspective/coaching style hasn’t changed, but rather, at least to some extent, wrestling has and subsequently, our recruits have.
I believe this slow defensive style of wrestling is starting a lower levels of wrestling and just keeps moving up until it gets to college. Quite frankly officiating allows it and more often than not, wrestlers and teams are rewarded for it(if not rewarded, rarely penalized for it). I am not sure if you can coach a kid out of this style once they get to college, no matter how much Brands tries. Its kind of like asking RGIII to become a pocket passer all of sudden once he gets to the pros after being a scrambling QB his whole life. Or telling Randy Johnson to stop throwing 100 MPH and pitch more like Greg Maddux. Or, to reference an Iowa guy, if it was so easy to “change†collegiate athletes, wouldn’t there be more 5’8†guys flying around the field killing people like one Bob Sanders? Ferentz didn’t make Bob Sanders what he was, but rather, he was that “hitman†long before he walked into Iowa City and the same thing can be said for the Brands boys 20 years ago. Now did Gable’s coaching style accentuate that type of wrestling? Absolutley, but do you honeslty think that Gable recruited passive wrestlers 30 years ago in hopes of changing them?...I don’t think so. In my opinion, the bulk of collegiate level wrestlers(and for that matter any sport), are athletes that have been honing their skills and styles for most all of their lives, and find it very difficult to change….Have any of you seen the movie, “Prefontaine� Well worth the time by the way. Through out the whole movie(and over a half decade of coaching), Coach Bill Bowerman tries to change Pre’s aggressive style of running, but cant and comes to realize that is just who Pre is.
To quote J Peterman, "that certainly is a lot of words"…Sum it up….Guys, I am not sure what the answer is. A new coach? Really? Better recruits? Well sure, but only if they fit our style of wrestling? I for one think Brands is the right guy to head our program. I do however think that we need to realize that what we used to be with Gable will most likely never be repeated by anyone(in both success and style). I know Cael has it going that direction, but do all of his guys wrestle the in your face style of Iowa past? Sure some do, but many don’t.
Go Hawks
homes
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your analysis, bluemolson. If this is the future of wrestling, I am concerned. It is boring to watch, except for maybe those proficient in the technical aspects of wrestling.
I see it somewhat akin to Iowa basketball. Iowa basketball fans were raised on an uptempo style, and along came Alford and to a much greater extent, Lickliter. It killed the enthusiasm among the fans. McCaffery has brought back that uptempo style (and, oh yeah, he's got a lot better players, too), and the fans have returned. The fan support for Iowa wrestling has not reached its nadir like it did with the basketball program, so it's not a great analogy, but it could be a cautionary tale.
However, if it is an entire culture in wrestling now, it may be more difficult to change. If kids are being taught to react and counterattack, and no one is "attacking", then both wrestlers are waiting for something that will not occur. That leads to boring wrestling. I like Brands. He seems to still have that fire in his belly - it sounds like it just may be more difficult to get it out of his team, at least in terms of adopting the style with which he and his brother wrestled. However, it's nothing that a National Championship won't cure.
I see it somewhat akin to Iowa basketball. Iowa basketball fans were raised on an uptempo style, and along came Alford and to a much greater extent, Lickliter. It killed the enthusiasm among the fans. McCaffery has brought back that uptempo style (and, oh yeah, he's got a lot better players, too), and the fans have returned. The fan support for Iowa wrestling has not reached its nadir like it did with the basketball program, so it's not a great analogy, but it could be a cautionary tale.
However, if it is an entire culture in wrestling now, it may be more difficult to change. If kids are being taught to react and counterattack, and no one is "attacking", then both wrestlers are waiting for something that will not occur. That leads to boring wrestling. I like Brands. He seems to still have that fire in his belly - it sounds like it just may be more difficult to get it out of his team, at least in terms of adopting the style with which he and his brother wrestled. However, it's nothing that a National Championship won't cure.
DodgerHawki
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your perspective. Not an ardent wresting fan (but tune in every so often). It's not just Iowa, today's wrestling in general is not appealing to the casual fan. If/when I watch matches that aren't a complete mismatch, both guys seem to play for one takedown. That's it. Maybe every wrestler is being better schooled on defense and ability to ride on top and what not, but I doubt it.
