Simply put, because we're better at what we do defensively than they are at what they do offensively. IMO. Indiana did the same thing and we held them way below their scoring average and had multiple balls that could have been intercepted.
Miller: Getting Defensive
- Thread starter JonDMiller
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Simply put, because we're better at what we do defensively than they are at what they do offensively. IMO. Indiana did the same thing and we held them way below their scoring average and had multiple balls that could have been intercepted.
Most people on this board don't doubt how good our D is this year or has been in past years, that goes without saying. But it isn't about those teams.
This year we are a dropped ball in the endzone away from having 3 losses all on long drives that this great D has given up at the end of games.
Look we all know the O left points on the table vs. Indiana, the special teams put us in a huge hole vs. Arizona, and our coaches screwed up not calling for a punt safe vs. Wisc.
The bottom line is as this article points out the best aspect of the Iowa teams over the last 10 years has been the D. All some of us are trying to point out is this year for whatever reason that strength of the Iowa team hasn't been able to shut down another team when the game is on the line.
Could that change in the last 3 weeks? Sure but up until this point they haven't.
This year we are a dropped ball in the endzone away from having 3 losses all on long drives that this great D has given up at the end of games.
Look we all know the O left points on the table vs. Indiana, the special teams put us in a huge hole vs. Arizona, and our coaches screwed up not calling for a punt safe vs. Wisc.
The bottom line is as this article points out the best aspect of the Iowa teams over the last 10 years has been the D. All some of us are trying to point out is this year for whatever reason that strength of the Iowa team hasn't been able to shut down another team when the game is on the line.
Could that change in the last 3 weeks? Sure but up until this point they haven't.
The stat that I'd be most interested in seeing is in the past 10 years, what is the conversion rate against our defense in 3rd down situations in which we face 3 + wide receivers.
This year alone, we gave up a fourth down conversion and two third's AFTER WI's fake punt, AZ ran 3-4 wide their entire final drive, Indiana spread us out their final drive, and MSU went 3-4 wide on every third down they faced while the game's outcome was still in doubt (this admittedly didn't cost us the game, but MSU's conversion percentage was frightening in the first half).
Opponents know two things when they game plan against the Hawks D, 1) their base offense against our defense, Hawks win. 2) Spread the Hawks D out, put more athletes on the field, and they rarely adjust accordingly.
I agree with the previous posters, on a macro level, we as a fan base don't have much of a gripe, but in seasons like this, its the micro issues that keep this team from ascending past 10-2 and a shared BTT.
Ferentz has historically addressed his shortcomings in the offseason, and the model is there for opposing coaches to follow to move the ball against the Hawks, so it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.
This year alone, we gave up a fourth down conversion and two third's AFTER WI's fake punt, AZ ran 3-4 wide their entire final drive, Indiana spread us out their final drive, and MSU went 3-4 wide on every third down they faced while the game's outcome was still in doubt (this admittedly didn't cost us the game, but MSU's conversion percentage was frightening in the first half).
Opponents know two things when they game plan against the Hawks D, 1) their base offense against our defense, Hawks win. 2) Spread the Hawks D out, put more athletes on the field, and they rarely adjust accordingly.
I agree with the previous posters, on a macro level, we as a fan base don't have much of a gripe, but in seasons like this, its the micro issues that keep this team from ascending past 10-2 and a shared BTT.
Ferentz has historically addressed his shortcomings in the offseason, and the model is there for opposing coaches to follow to move the ball against the Hawks, so it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.
hawkeyescott
Well-Known Member
This Iowa D is good, but I still don't think they are as good as people want to believe, sure they have an excellent scoring D but I noticed you didn't include the scoring O's of the teams Iowa has played. I think Arizona is the only one that has scored more against Iowa then their average but teams aren't exactly lighting up the scoreboard against other teams either. Here are the teams and their ranks for scoring offense:
Eastern Illinois: 103rd in FCS out of 117
Iowa St: 79th
Arizona: 42nd (loss)
Ball St: 92nd
Penn St: 82nd
Michigan: 12th
Wisconsin: 19th (loss)
Michigan St: 39th
Indiana: 60th
So of the 4 teams in the top half of college football in scoring O, Iowa is 2-2 and one of those (Michigan) has one of the worst D's in college football.
Eastern Illinois: 103rd in FCS out of 117
Iowa St: 79th
Arizona: 42nd (loss)
Ball St: 92nd
Penn St: 82nd
Michigan: 12th
Wisconsin: 19th (loss)
Michigan St: 39th
Indiana: 60th
So of the 4 teams in the top half of college football in scoring O, Iowa is 2-2 and one of those (Michigan) has one of the worst D's in college football.
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silvanthalas
Well-Known Member
Except, they didn't score their TD on that helluva play. They scored it several plays after that.
Worse, the play doesn't really matter, as the bend but don't break basically allows the team to get to the 20, and that is where the defense is supposed to stop them. The defense did not stop them when it mattered the most. THAT is the point.
And, let's face it, bend but don't break isn't the ideal defense when the objective may be to prevent the other team from scoring the winning points.
hawkeyescott
Well-Known Member
If Arizona doesn't fumble at the 9 they probably have 2 long TD drives.
olivecourt
Well-Known Member
But memory has such a funny way of being selective... when we think of teams as dominant, we tend to only remember the stops they made. But many of our great defensive units (and they were great) allowed their share of game-ending drives. Many times, the difference has come down to one play-- either a play that we made, a play that the other team didn't, or what seem like bizarre or even lucky bounces.
Remember 2003 against Wisconsin? They let the Badgers march down the field with 3:30 left, and Considine got his hands on a pass in the end zone with no time on the clock.
No. 17 Iowa 27, Wisconsin 21 - College Football - Rivals.com
In 2004 against Minnesota, we knew they only wanted to run the ball, but let them into field goal range where Rhys Lloyd missed a 51-yarder (yes, that's a long field goal, but Lloyd had been money indoors).
No. 19 Iowa 29, Minnesota 27 - College Football - Rivals.com
In 2008, we let a 3-8 Purdue team drive from their own 20 to our 27 in just over a minute. The last pass into the end zone went long...
Greene carries Iowa to 22-17 win over Purdue - College Football - Rivals.com
So some of the bounces haven't gone our way this year, and some of the other teams have made great plays. If we don't get a punt blocked (deep in our territory) and throw a pick-6 (when we were deep in their territory) at Arizona, it's all rainbows and sunshine. If we don't completely take our eye off the punter against Wisconsin, we're all talking about what a great stop the defense made. We have asked our defense to do a lot, more than most teams. And if you watch other college football games, you know that they deliver time and time again, to the point that it seems bizarre when anyone sustains a touchdown drive against them. That's pretty remarkable.
HawkeyeTech
Well-Known Member
We're also 2 non-dropped passes from being undefeated this year. What's your point?
83Hawk
Banned
Jon's article is good....but Rawkhawk makes a good point.
I'm not saying Iowa's defense isn't good..but what good are great stats if they fail to come thru when the game is on the line (Arizona, Wisconsin, and even Indiana)? Say what you want about the Arizona QB making a PERFECT pass, or the ST screw up against Wisconsin....the fact is the defense failed to make a stop at a crucial point.
Sure...Wisconsin had to put together a double-digit play drive to win....but on the flip side...WHY did the defense allow a double-digit drive in the first place? They had multiple chances to stop them on fourth down...but didn't.
Since Norm will be at the game this week, I am hoping for a MUCH better performance out of Iowa's defense. They are going to need it.
And hopefully KOK exploits NW's weaknesses...instead of trying to be conservative.
I'm not saying Iowa's defense isn't good..but what good are great stats if they fail to come thru when the game is on the line (Arizona, Wisconsin, and even Indiana)? Say what you want about the Arizona QB making a PERFECT pass, or the ST screw up against Wisconsin....the fact is the defense failed to make a stop at a crucial point.
Sure...Wisconsin had to put together a double-digit play drive to win....but on the flip side...WHY did the defense allow a double-digit drive in the first place? They had multiple chances to stop them on fourth down...but didn't.
Since Norm will be at the game this week, I am hoping for a MUCH better performance out of Iowa's defense. They are going to need it.
And hopefully KOK exploits NW's weaknesses...instead of trying to be conservative.
hawkfan2679
Well-Known Member
This discussion reminds me of an NFL game in the early 90's (1990 or 1991). The Chiefs were playing the Seahawks and Derrick Thomas was tearing up Seattle's OL. He got a sack, then another, then another, until he had racked up 7 sacks in the game.
But then, on the last play of the game (or close to it), with Seattle in scoring position and KC clinging to a small lead (I think), Thomas comes screaming off the edge and grabs Dave Krieg. Except this time, Krieg is able to shrug him off, step up in the pocket, and throw a game winning touchdown pass to Brian Blades.
After the game, Thomas was inconsolable. Sure he had racked up an NFL record statline, but when it counted the most, he was unable to make the play and his team lost. Naturally, not all can be attributed to him, but I think it's a microcosm of what this discussion is about.
If you make the plays during the majority of the game, but can't make them at crunch time, does it really matter what you did before crunch time?
But then, on the last play of the game (or close to it), with Seattle in scoring position and KC clinging to a small lead (I think), Thomas comes screaming off the edge and grabs Dave Krieg. Except this time, Krieg is able to shrug him off, step up in the pocket, and throw a game winning touchdown pass to Brian Blades.
After the game, Thomas was inconsolable. Sure he had racked up an NFL record statline, but when it counted the most, he was unable to make the play and his team lost. Naturally, not all can be attributed to him, but I think it's a microcosm of what this discussion is about.
If you make the plays during the majority of the game, but can't make them at crunch time, does it really matter what you did before crunch time?
olivecourt
Well-Known Member
It matters because without our defense, there wouldn't be a crunch time. Most teams that fritter away four opportunities inside the 10, get punts blocked inside their own 20, leave 5+ special teams points on the field, or give up ridiculous fake punts don't get the privilege of having the game come down to the final play.
Rawkhawk73
Banned
You can make all the excuses you want, but the point remains.....we WERE there in crunch time, tied or ahead in both ball games with less than 5 minutes to go and our, historically, best unit on the field to decide the game. Both times they came up short and if not for a dropped pass in the end zone, would have been 0-3 in crunch-time defensive stops.
For as much as you don't want to admit, greatness is determined not by what you do when it doesn't matter, but what you do when it DOES matter.
olivecourt
Well-Known Member
I think it all comes down to how we define "greatness." People are arguing that you can't call a defensive team great when they don't step up at the end the game and refuse to let another team move the ball. I see that point. But then I wonder if we've ever had any great defenses at Iowa... or if there ever have been any truly great defenses at any level, anywhere. Do we look back at previous years and only remember the stops, but forget the long drives we've given up, the dropped balls, the lucky bounces, etc? We get irritated about our defense in the Arizona game, but we forget the 2004 defensive's complete washout at Arizona State.
At the end of the day, even the "great" defensive teams aren't perfect. The '85 Bears gave up 38 points in a loss to Miami. The 2000 Baltimore Ravens gave up some game-losing drives. The '94 Nebraska Cornhuskers gave up 32 to Wyoming, of all teams. Ohio State is one of the gold standard teams in terms of defense over the years, and they've had their share of collapses against inexplicable teams: Illinois, Purdue, etc. I wonder about the standards we're holding the D to, and how that standard matches up with the realities of football.
At the end of the day, even the "great" defensive teams aren't perfect. The '85 Bears gave up 38 points in a loss to Miami. The 2000 Baltimore Ravens gave up some game-losing drives. The '94 Nebraska Cornhuskers gave up 32 to Wyoming, of all teams. Ohio State is one of the gold standard teams in terms of defense over the years, and they've had their share of collapses against inexplicable teams: Illinois, Purdue, etc. I wonder about the standards we're holding the D to, and how that standard matches up with the realities of football.
LutherHawk
Well-Known Member
Great quote! It applies to any profession or vocation or athletic competition. Performance is ultimately measured for a player in big moments. Before Peyton Manning won the Super Bowl, many were questioning how great he really was...and he is arguably the best QB ever to play in the NFL. We are all utlimately measured by our performance and performance is most important in crisis or under pressure.
Additionally, ST mistakes and coaching mistakes have really put this defense under gun. Eliminate even one or two of those mistakes and Iowa is likely undefeated.
ICHawk24
Well-Known Member
If we're going to play "ifs", then Iowa did stop the last-minute Wisconsin drive. Only Wisky got a second attempt, so the defense was 1-1 in that game on last minute drives.
Iowa was 1-0 against Indiana, even though you seem to want to pretend it was a loss.
iowahawkeyes89
Well-Known Member
Like someone else already mentioned, the defense was suppose to be the backbone of our team this year. With the game on the line vs Wisconsin, we got the ball run down our throat.
Is this defense good? Sure. But are they a top 5 or even top 10 defense? I just don't think so. Regardless of stats, I don't think this defense is one of the 10 best in college football this year.
Jon you may disagree, but I think your Iowa bias is showing a bit.
Is this defense good? Sure. But are they a top 5 or even top 10 defense? I just don't think so. Regardless of stats, I don't think this defense is one of the 10 best in college football this year.
Jon you may disagree, but I think your Iowa bias is showing a bit.
iowahawkeyes89
Well-Known Member
And like someone else mentioned, if Belcher catches that pass, we lose another game because the defense can't hold them late.
Again, a top 10 defense should rise to the occasion in that situation.
Again, a top 10 defense should rise to the occasion in that situation.
olivecourt
Well-Known Member
To me this shows how silly this is. No one should have questioned Manning's greatness, Super Bowl or none, just like no one should question Dan Marino's greatness, just like the fact that Ohio State won a national title didn't make Craig Krenzel some sort of super quarterback. We all love Drew Tate because he made a great play in the Cap One Bowl, but where's he going to stack up in terms of Iowa QBs at the end of the day?
olivecourt
Well-Known Member
Name 10 defenses better than Iowa's.
HaydenHawk56
Well-Known Member
Iowa's defensive scheme has been very successful. Jon has pointed out the statistics on it. But, let's face it, it is still a gimmick defense that is being used to make up for short falls in other areas. Gimmick defenses still can be beaten. I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with using this defense as our base scheme. However, I wish we would every once and awhile change things up to keep the offense a little more honest. For example, try to take away the short pass and dare them to go deep on you.
