Lickliter, the basketball program, and the next level.

[tmurph2643]

Ok, so here is the deal... I have to get a bunch of things off my chest. I know this is long, thanks for bearing with me.

I have been on both sides of the fence in regards to the situation of the Iowa basketball team this winter. I try to watch the games from an objective point of view and try to dissect which direction this program is really going.

With that being said, at the beginning of the year I couldn't stomach to watch this team play. I still did, and tried to maintain hope as the season went on. This team lost to some teams that they had no business losing to, and in all honesty I can not remember more than a handful of times that an Iowa team lost a game to a small school they should have beaten easily.

Trying to maintain a positive attitude, I kept watching and was overcome by the generosity of fans on this forum when I was able to get tickets to the Iowa vs Drake game to go with my dad. While at that game I witnessed a decent crowd for winter break, as well as some promise from a "young" team. I use the term "young" loosely because there are plenty of "young" teams out there who are very successful.

The team took a huge hit that weekend when Anthony Tucker went down, but in the long-run, I believe that it helped this team grow. With Tucker out, and diminishing time for Bawinkle (I like the kid just wish he was more versatile) the team learned to run an offense. Payne and Fuller turned from boys to men, May has gotten some confidence in his three ball, and Cougill has shown spurts of great promise.

I look back on the era of Alford basketball at Iowa, and I think back to times where his players just did not play hard. Team distractions that left the team in disarray a few times, and the countless times that we were fueled by high expectations that failed. Coach Lickliter is very honest about the state of his program, but has maintained confidence. Of the players who are left on the team, I can not think of one time that ANY of those guys were not giving their best effort. Regardless of being down 20 at Michigan State (which was doom for our Alford coached teams) these guys kept believing. They fought back and we all know the outcome. But if that does not give you hope. Are you truly a Hawkeye?

A month ago, I was on the wagon thinking that we really needed to make a change at the head of the program. Today I write this asking Hawkeye fans across the country to stand up, (regardless of whether you like Lickliter) and cheer on these Hawkeyes. Don't lose faith in Coach Lickliter. Gary Barta has been in Athletic Administration for a long-time, I trust his judgment better than mine or anybody else on here. I think it says a lot that with all of the defections, and decline of the program he is still behind Coach Lick. For whatever reason, I feel like Lickliter is our guy, and that he is going to get the job done.

Go Hawks, down with the Boilers....

 

[burky247]

Good post.

I'm not exactly in agreement with you. As I don't think I've seen enough evidence that Lick can get it done in Big Ten play. Nor do I think less talented players that play hard is necessarily a recipe for success. Granted, it's less frustrating than talented players who dog it on the court. But for the money TL is bringing in we shouldn't have to choose between those two options anyway.

Still, it was a good post. I think everyone, regardless of their opinions on Iowa bball, should try to keep an open mind as much as possible. I know that gets tough when lines seem to be drawn in the sand with our fan base. But it would make things more tolerable at the least.

 

[tmurph2643]

Good post.

I'm not exactly in agreement with you. As I don't think I've seen enough evidence that Lick can get it done in Big Ten play. Nor do I think less talented players that play hard is necessarily a recipe for success. Granted, it's less frustrating than talented players who dog it on the court. But for the money TL is bringing in we shouldn't have to choose between those two options anyway.

Still, it was a good post. I think everyone, regardless of their opinions on Iowa bball, should try to keep an open mind as much as possible. I know that gets tough when lines seem to be drawn in the sand with our fan base. But it would make things more tolerable at the least.

I think a big thing that I see on this board is that there is this line that is drawn and you are either on the "fire Lick side" or "the Lick lover" side. I have been on both sides and I can draw strong arguments either way. There are times where I have criticized Lick, and there are times where I have praised him.

I think Lickliter is definitely more interested in developing players to fit his system rather than deal with egos. And I look at our roster and think, if Brust and/or Marble are the impact players that we need, we are in good shape next year with this system. There are definitely guys who can thrive in it, when it is working. I also think May is turning into that guy who could be a huge impact player.

You know, Lickliters teams have played some of the best defense I have seen from an Iowa team since Davis left. Unfortunately there has been virtually no offense to take advantage of it. This is the reason I can't give up on Lickliter. As I said, I have been on both sides of that line this year.. and I can make arguments for both sides, but I really badly want Lickliter to get it done here.

How much fun would it be to have the sustained success that Wisconsin has had playing the same type of ball??

 

[HawkeyeRyno]

I posted this in another thread but it is relevant for this thread as well...

Kenyon Murray and Jess Settles had some valid points in a Press Citizen article regarding the last decade of Iowa basketball and when alumni start talking about the program the way Settles and Murray are along with the national media's perception (ESPN's Andy Katz - Iowa is "irrelevant") then there are bigger problems to solve than "just winning."

Barta needs to stop comparing the current struggles of the basketball program with the 2006-07 football struggles. While football may have "struggled" those years, the amount of criticism toward football was minuscule compared to that currently of basketball. Ferentz had already proven success before this (by year 3 in fact) and proven he could rebuild a program. Ferentz realized things needed to change and so he hires new staff members (i.e. Erik Campbell, Chigazie Ejiasi) along with a coaching philosophy in recruiting, bowl prep and discipline. That change has paid off as well. Ferentz and his staff are also exceptional at player development. Attendance during 06-07 was also not a problem.

Lickliter and his staff have ZERO proven success at IOWA going into year four. Lickliter's third year could be his WORST and a history worst. And haven't been able to keep kids in the program long enough to show significant player development. At least not along the same lines as the football program. Attendance is a HUGE problem with basketball. Lickliter deserves another year but maybe he should change some sort of philosophies or make a staff adjustment. It worked for Ferentz.

The football team won the Alamo Bowl in Ferentz's third year and would go to the Orange Bowl the following year. Along the same lines then, the basketball team should be in the NIT this year and then then next year should make an Elite 8 appearance (this is NOT going to happen BTW). In the years Barta is referring to the football team's struggles, at least they still went to a bowl game and were .500 the following year. That is mediocre maybe but the basketball team's current state is worse than mediocre! For Barta to make these comparisons are just not valid IMO.

Davis was let go because he couldn't take the program to "the next level". Then Alford comes in and he fails to take the program to "the next level", in fact, he fails to even come close to Davis' level. Now all we want from Lickliter is to at least get the program back to where Alford left it???? Isn't this irony???

 

[burky247]

Good post as well Ryno.

As far as our team, I would love to be able to be in the NCAA Tourney again and have the success of Wisconsin(although I still don't see why people try to compare our two offenses). But, as a season ticket holder, I would love to watch successful, exciting basketball. I want Iowa to be successful under Lick. But I also can't stand his offensive philosophy.

 

[parquet]

Good post as well Ryno.

As far as our team, I would love to be able to be in the NCAA Tourney again and have the success of Wisconsin(although I still don't see why people try to compare our two offenses). But, as a season ticket holder, I would love to watch successful, exciting basketball. I want Iowa to be successful under Lick. But I also can't stand his offensive philosophy.

Saved me from posting on this thread. Nice job. Thanks.

 

[JHHawk]

I am sorry,but I just did not see Iowa hawkeyes not play hard for SA. Horner,Bru,Haluska,Erik Hansen,Mike Henderson and DT had one of the best defensive teams in country by all defensive ratings systems in 06. I simply never remember players not trying hard ...and I do not see that now either.

Saying that we have played some of the best defense this year since the Mr. Davis era does not fly.
A. Mr. Davis did not have great half court defensive teams usually. He was known for a pressing system and zone on defense...good when we had the athletes,not so good when we didnt...but he was not a defensive guru.
B. Cully Payne struggles to guard opposing point guards ...
If anyone could be accused of playing half-hearted defense,it was Tucker.
And inside, we are short,with Cole being overmatched by Sims and others.
Sorry, I do think we played some decent defense last year, but losing Kelly and Peterson has hurt our defense this year. May is good...but outside of him,our defense has been average at best,hence the 9-16 record.

I am open-minded enough to say that lick will get next year to prove his worth to the program. I always root like crazy for the Hawks and hope for the best.
But as was pointed out ,even a loyalist like Kenyon Murray is pointing out that Iowa is struggling to recruit difference makers mainly due to lickball. If that continues in this offseason, it is not good for the program.

As for Ben Brust and Marble being good for this system...yet to be determined. What I know from following Mundelein here in the chicago area is that they play very fast, Brust gets a lot of open shots in transition, and he is a volume shooter...now, none of that is a real fit for our system as it has been played.
Marble is pretty much an unknown but clearly plays a lot of city ball,and again,that is not a typical lick recruit. I hope Marble is strong enough at age 17 to make an impact next year, but i suspect at 175lbs...he is not Big Ten strong...bearing in mind that Adam haluska was the same heighth and was 220lbs and played the same position. I think either McCabe or Marble or both would be red-shirt candidates if they do not look ready right away.

This meme that has some fans painted as anti-lick is simply not nuanced enough. Many are simply anti-losing. And the obvious tell-tale signs of future improvement is centered on recruiting real difference makers...by next november we will know if Lick has signed Randle or a player of his ilk...if so, that gives him a little more ammo to defend his performance, if not...it is a legit red flag..then next years performance on the court will be the final arbiter of his future...every hawk fan on these boards wants to not suffer thru a 4th straight losing season..so we will be hoping and rooting the team on...but as kenyon pointed out, it is hard to win back a fanbase without winning...so lick, just win.

 

[tmurph2643]

I am sorry,but I just did not see Iowa hawkeyes not play hard for SA. Horner,Bru,Haluska,Erik Hansen,Mike Henderson and DT had one of the best defensive teams in country by all defensive ratings systems in 06. I simply never remember players not trying hard ...and I do not see that now either.


Completely agree that THIS GROUP played hard for 40 minutes. However, THIS GROUP was also transformed when Craig Neal stepped in. Looking at Alford's teams that tremendously underachieved... including taking a team from sweet 16 to nothing... involved a tremendous lack of effort on the defensive end.

 

[eyekwah]

In my opinion the most fundamentally sound team in the B10 is Wisconsin. Is their "style" attractive to "up tempo" players? I'd say no, but if you enjoy basketball without needless turnovers and players that play on both ends of the court unselfishly then that style works for me. I believe that is what Mr Todd Lickliter wants to emulate UW's fundamental soundness. Iowa doesn't have to do it exactly the same way as UW, but there is nothing wrong with playing good fundamental basketball.

Regarding Mr Steve Alford, former Iowa coach, Iowa gave him two years too many in my opinion. Bowlsby got sucked in to an expensive long term contract based on partial success. If it would not have been for an expensive buyout he would have been history after year five, especially after the PP episodes. Whether his recent success is due to Noodle's Neal or his OJT at Iowa is unimportant.

 

[JHHawk]

I am sorry,but I just did not see Iowa hawkeyes not play hard for SA. Horner,Bru,Haluska,Erik Hansen,Mike Henderson and DT had one of the best defensive teams in country by all defensive ratings systems in 06. I simply never remember players not trying hard ...and I do not see that now either.


Completely agree that THIS GROUP played hard for 40 minutes. However, THIS GROUP was also transformed when Craig Neal stepped in. Looking at Alford's teams that tremendously underachieved... including taking a team from sweet 16 to nothing... involved a tremendous lack of effort on the defensive end.

Are you saying that in SA's first year,he inherited a sweet sixteen team? C'mon...he inherited two players..Deano and Jacks....thats it. Mr. Davis's lame duck year resulted in virtually an empty bench...rod thompson,deano and jacks was about it....which is why SA brought in reiner,worley,boyd,sondy,hogan,recker,and evans in his second year after one year emergency guys like griffin and fermino crapped out...

Second year, we won 23 games,and the first trophy from the Big Ten in 22 years.....and they did not play defense or play hard?

I am not saying he was a great coach,but I thought his players tried hard anyway...Reiner worked hard, so did Evans(led the league in rebounding both years)...and so on...

 

[kgoblee]

I had no use for Alford and was real excited to get a NCOY in Tl and figured he would take awhile to turn this around.
But I am disappointed in what our team looks like. First of all we should be playing zone with the talent we have. I hate zone but with the short rotation and lack of quickness I think it would be a viable option.
Second I think the offense is not run crisply at all, it is a simple offense and there is no excuse for not setting good picks and cutting off them, it does not take 3 years to get that down.
And finally the coaching on out of bounds plays really lacks execution. We hardly ever get a good shot after a timeout or off an inbounds play.
I just am not impressed with his coaching and since we are paying him several million bucks a year I expect more from him than just having the kids play hard.....

 

[tmurph2643]

Are you saying that in SA's first year,he inherited a sweet sixteen team? C'mon...he inherited two players..Deano and Jacks....thats it. Mr. Davis's lame duck year resulted in virtually an empty bench...rod thompson,deano and jacks was about it....which is why SA brought in reiner,worley,boyd,sondy,hogan,recker,and evans in his second year after one year emergency guys like griffin and fermino crapped out...

Second year, we won 23 games,and the first trophy from the Big Ten in 22 years.....and they did not play defense or play hard?

I am not saying he was a great coach,but I thought his players tried hard anyway...Reiner worked hard, so did Evans(led the league in rebounding both years)...and so on...

Alfords first team was good enough to knock off #1 in his first game and also beat Kansas with Collison and Hinrich... but then they lost to a bunch of lame duck teams to keep them out of the tourney.... if that is not an inconsistency based on effort.. i don't know what it is. I remember watching his teams just die when they got behind at MSU a few times.. ended up with some of the most humiliating defeats in my lifetime in East Lansing.

Second... in regards to another poster who has not been happy with Lick's coaching abilities... I completely agree on your entire post... however.. probably the most satisfying coaching job to me that he has done....

Develop Seth Gorney into a reasonable player.
Put Cyrus Tate in a position to be successful

I think the staff has shown that they can develop players.. but I am not sold on the x's and o's part.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

Alfords first team was good enough to knock off #1 in his first game and also beat Kansas with Collison and Hinrich...

Uconn was way overrated as preseason #1 that year. They were something like a 5-seed if I remember right in the tournament. Still a good win, though. That KU team they beat was definitely one of the off years at Kansas, something like an 8-9 seed I thought that year as well. Still another good win, but neither one was against vintage Uconn or Kansas teams.

 

[olivecourt]

some of alford's teams played hard on the defensive end, but they never,
EVER, identified hot shooters and got in their face. the end of that northwestern st. game was typical for so many reasons... giving away a sizeable lead late and then failing to recognize the shooter on the key play. that happened so many times against alford's teams, and was one of the reasons they were terrible about holding leads.

today was brutal, but i'm just dumb enough to believe that we have some very promising freshmen and good recruits coming in. gatens is getting smothered by every team's best defensive player, and we badly need some other scorers to step up to make other teams pay for that. if fuller can keep developing and cody larson is as good as advertised, we can start to finish some of the inside looks that we get. that will help a lot.

the bottom line is this... if we decide to part ways with lickliter, we're looking at another three years, at least, until we are a competitive basketball team again. i think lickliter will get us there faster than that and that we will be .500 or better next year. i realize that a .500 record in year 4 is not ideal, but the alternative is even harder to stomach.

 

[joemc1]

This is a mute point; Barta will not fire Lick after this year. But, I don't buy that a coaching change would put us back 3 years. There are lots of coaches who could turn this around in a year or 2.

 

[NewMexHawk]

Wisconsin has difference makers on their team and always has.

Lickliter once said he does not need those type of players, that his style of ball neutralizes the better teams. That might work in the Horizon League agains Wright St but that ideology just won't work in the Big 10 and I believe we are seeing it first hand.

The hawks played good defense this year against poor teams, not against the better teams in the Big 10. Oh, they might have for short periods of time during a game but they are just too slow and typically do not match up well with the better teams in the league--either defensively or offensively.

I think when people see Iowa play good defense against a poor team they get all excited and think they see the future of Iowa bb. I think it is a smokescreen simply because our players are not going to get faster or quicker because they get a year older. If that is the case, then our opponents also will get faster and quicker. So against the better teams, we will still have the same problems on defense and offense. EXCEPT against the poorer teams--then we will look good and people will get excited except we will be in year 4 (but people will say that the freshmen class are young, wait until they are experienced). So the more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[tmurph2643]

some of alford's teams played hard on the defensive end, but they never,
EVER, identified hot shooters and got in their face. the end of that northwestern st. game was typical for so many reasons... giving away a sizeable lead late and then failing to recognize the shooter on the key play. that happened so many times against alford's teams, and was one of the reasons they were terrible about holding leads.

today was brutal, but i'm just dumb enough to believe that we have some very promising freshmen and good recruits coming in. gatens is getting smothered by every team's best defensive player, and we badly need some other scorers to step up to make other teams pay for that. if fuller can keep developing and cody larson is as good as advertised, we can start to finish some of the inside looks that we get. that will help a lot.

the bottom line is this... if we decide to part ways with lickliter, we're looking at another three years, at least, until we are a competitive basketball team again. i think lickliter will get us there faster than that and that we will be .500 or better next year. i realize that a .500 record in year 4 is not ideal, but the alternative is even harder to stomach.

The beginning of this quote is a comment I meant to make and forgot about. RJHINDM is another poster on here, and when him and I would watch the Iowa games under Alford, we were always ticked off beyond belief that Iowa played a zone and let the other teams shoot the three wide open over it... fast forward to this year... i believe it was ohio state that Iowa held to no 3 pt baskets in a game for the first time in like 10 years.. just sayin.

 

[tweeterhawk]

I am coming to the conclusion that we have a basketball coach and an athletics director who are in over their heads, and that the change may need to come from higher up. Have to think some of the donors are beginning to feel that way, too.

 

[rjhindm]

I am coming to the conclusion that we have a basketball coach and an athletics director who are in over their heads, and that the change may need to come from higher up. Have to think some of the donors are beginning to feel that way, too.

Not sure about the "hire ups" However both the mens and the womens basketball teams are not looking to hot.

Football and Wrestling (both major college sports) are alive and well.


I can't help but think the practice fac. will help a ton...but i am sick of losing...thats for sure!!!

 

[hawkeye12345]

Does the OP still feel the way he did prior to the Purdue game?