Kansas

It's amazing how much the tournament impacts our view of a coach. If he had made 4 final fours instead of 2, is he a much better coach then? I mean it's such a fine line.

That said, a lot of the EE's KU gets just absolutely destroyed too unless I'm remembering incorrectly.
 


SteveGarvey1 said:
7 elite eights, a final 4 and a national championship plus like 57 regular season conference championships in a row. Still some meat left on the bone there but I wouldn't classify them as numbers that don't appear to be good, even for a blue blood program.
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I would agree.

In my post I was trying to hint, but not very well, at perspective in context.

The numbers you give when compared to most programs are very good. Looking at the numbers like mopkins does, the numbers are meh. And another perspective would be to look at the other programs with multiple elite 8's and #1 seeds and see what they've done with their pedigree standing compared to Kansas.

I wonder if on the Kansas boards their are Self-haters for missing out, blown opportunities, choke jobs of losing 5 of 7 elite eights?

Context is everything
 


There is some of that for sure DD. I hit the KU board as much as any other, and they are frustrated with "only" getting to the Elite 8. That said, most seem pretty happy with him.
 


There are a few things at play here. The key to all of it is that the lil 12 is a sham of a hoops league. I'm sorry but any conference that crowns the same regular season champ 13 years in a row is a joke. They have one elite team and no one else. Since 2000 half of the B1G's membership has played in the NC game. The lil 12 has had KS. So KS gets overrated to a degree from their early season triumphs then rather than get hardened in conference play, they go play in rinky dink arenas aganist patsies. So, I do t know that it's so much a choke as it is predictable.
 




We wish we were Kansas. Self has also not been swept in 117 straight Home & Home series....that is mind boggling!!!
 




mopkins said:
I'd say every time you're a 1 seed and miss the final four you fell short of expectations. I don't expect it to happen every time, but it should happen >50% of the time.

Also, I've said this about a hundred times now, but if you've won 13 conference championships in a row, you're in a really shitty conference.
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WVU, ISU, and Baylor have been pretty good the last several years. I'd say it was more that Kansas gets great recruits and Self is a pretty good coach.
 


I just saw a stat that #1 seeds only average something like 3.3 wins in the tournament in last 15 or so years or some time period like that. Bill Self averages something like 3.15 wins as a #1 but has also been a number 1 seed more than most other coaches. He also has close to the same winning percentage in the tournament as K, Williams, and Calipari since he has been at KU. The narrative that KU always fails in the tournament is false. He is an elite, hall of fame coach. Cal prior to the last two years was getting to the final four at a crazy pace with his one and done classes but his classes haven't been as dominant of late because Coach K and others have started recruiting one and dones better.
 


FirstDownHawkeyes said:
There are a few things at play here. The key to all of it is that the lil 12 is a sham of a hoops league. I'm sorry but any conference that crowns the same regular season champ 13 years in a row is a joke. They have one elite team and no one else. Since 2000 half of the B1G's membership has played in the NC game. The lil 12 has had KS. So KS gets overrated to a degree from their early season triumphs then rather than get hardened in conference play, they go play in rinky dink arenas aganist patsies. So, I do t know that it's so much a choke as it is predictable.
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Wrong
 




I don't think the league itself has anything to do with it. Watching the NCAA tournament every game looks like a WVU game. Just tons of contact. The Big 12 is a finesse league in both football and basketball IMO. Doesn't really help it when getting to the tournament.
 


BryceC said:
I don't think the league itself has anything to do with it. Watching the NCAA tournament every game looks like a WVU game. Just tons of contact. The Big 12 is a finesse league in both football and basketball IMO. Doesn't really help it when getting to the tournament.
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I would agree with that. The Big 12 style of play doesn't prep you for the level of aggressive D in the lose and go home NCAAT. That may be most of why the conference in general underperforma its seeding not just this year but in many years.

As far as the conference being competitive. For KU it does not appear to be. 13 years in a row is not competitive for them. I refuse to believe they would be able to do anything close to that in the B1G or ACC. Even if they replaced a top dog in the SEC (KY) or PAC (AZ), there is no way.
 


SteveGarvey1 said:
WVU, ISU, and Baylor have been pretty good the last several years. I'd say it was more that Kansas gets great recruits and Self is a pretty good coach.
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I think in the last 3 years Baylor has won 2 NCAA games, Iowa State has won 3, WV has won 4. Zero elite 8s or final fours from any of those schools in the past 3 years. My opinion is that Kansas is elite and the rest of the big 12 is average. If Kansas was in the Big 10 or ACC do they win 13 straight conference titles? No.
 


FirstDownHawkeyes said:
I would agree with that. The Big 12 style of play doesn't prep you for the level of aggressive D in the lose and go home NCAAT. That may be most of why the conference in general underperforma its seeding not just this year but in many years.

As far as the conference being competitive. For KU it does not appear to be. 13 years in a row is not competitive for them. I refuse to believe they would be able to do anything close to that in the B1G or ACC. Even if they replaced a top dog in the SEC (KY) or PAC (AZ), there is no way.
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You might be right. They have tied 4 times during the 13 years. I will say KU has been more consistent than those teams. The last time KU won less than 25 games was 2005. That's just insane.

As far as the conference underperforming it's seeding, the only team that didn't perform exactly to their seed is KU, who didn't make the Final Four. Every other team played exactly to seed.
 


BryceC said:
You might be right. They have tied 4 times during the 13 years. I will say KU has been more consistent than those teams. The last time KU won less than 25 games was 2005. That's just insane.

As far as the conference underperforming it's seeding, the only team that didn't perform exactly to their seed is KU, who didn't make the Final Four. Every other team played exactly to seed.
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Baylor #3 losing to South Carolina #7 isn't playing to seed, is it? Asking for a friend. :)
 


BryceC said:
I don't think the league itself has anything to do with it. Watching the NCAA tournament every game looks like a WVU game. Just tons of contact. The Big 12 is a finesse league in both football and basketball IMO. Doesn't really help it when getting to the tournament.
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I totally agree. All of BB should look like Big12 basketball with less contact. It absolutely hurts them come NCAA tournament.

BryceC said:
You might be right. They have tied 4 times during the 13 years. I will say KU has been more consistent than those teams. The last time KU won less than 25 games was 2005. That's just insane.

As far as the conference underperforming it's seeding, the only team that didn't perform exactly to their seed is KU, who didn't make the Final Four. Every other team played exactly to seed.
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The Big12 didn't all play to their seeds. ISU should have made the Sweet 16 according to seeding.
 


Robowe said:
Baylor #3 losing to South Carolina #7 isn't playing to seed, is it? Asking for a friend. :)
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A 3 seed making the sweet 16 is playing to seed. Theoretically they should have lost to the 2 there, but a three seed should make the sweet 16 and lose there if everything played to seed.

deanvogs said:
The Big12 didn't all play to their seeds. ISU should have made the Sweet 16 according to seeding.
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ISU was a 5 seed and lost to a 4 seed. Again, that's exactly playing to seed.
 


The NCAAs is one and done. Villanova has been terrible in it except for last year when they won it all. Coach K has five titles but also a lot of early exits. If it's a best four out of seven, Kansas probably beats Oregon. But it wasn't, and Kansas had an off game and lost.

Taking all of this into consideration, all in all Self has done pretty well.
 


BryceC said:
A 3 seed making the sweet 16 is playing to seed. Theoretically they should have lost to the 2 there, but a three seed should make the sweet 16 and lose there if everything played to seed.
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I guess I don't agree. If a 3 seed loses to a 7 seed, they did not play to seed. The word theoretically was the key word in your sentence. :)
 


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