Jon's Podcast on Iowa Qbs and regression

[PCHawk]

Gosh, I don’t know.

The hypothesis is that Iowa develops QBs. Apparently you don’t find it “relevant” that one of them “sucked the whole time he was here.” Interesting.

As for Tate, he played, the stats count—especially when Jon built his entire hypothesis around stats.

You may also find it relevant that Tate managed to rush for more yards in 2006 than 2005 even though he was “injured the whole time.” Not what you’d expect from such an injured player.

The hypothesis is they get worse the longer they play. Now of you want to talk about recruiting quarterbacks that are actually good instead of overhyped...

So do you not believe that injuries can hurt your ability to play to your best abilities? If a guy is hurt, he isn't going to play as good. I assumed everyone knew that bit I guess not.

The rushing stats are interesting. But I would have to know more. Like how many negative yards was he sacked each year? Did the injury hurt his ability to run or hurt his throwing motion? Things like that matter before you form an opinion.

 

[Hawk1960]

Good discussion. I've never been in the "QB regression" camp and John makes a good case why it does not hold water. The only other thing I would add is "development" is not always linear ... it's often two steps forward and one step back in sports ... and life in general.

 

[uihawk82]

A-rob got hurt in the MSU game. Iowa went from averaging 30+ a game to somewhere in the high teens. A-rob wasn't the best ever at any one thing he just did everything very well.

Very true, very good receiver also, and if you watch him run he had very good footwork, his feet did not get much off the ground but he was still fast and this enabled him to make quick moves.

 

[Ozhawk]

I guess the real question is true or false have the Iowa Quarterbacks who are listed here regressed. Dres Tate Regressed and I don't care how he regressed he STILL regressed, Vandeberg regressed, Jake regressed to the point of not playing anymore. I still don't understand how you can point out that these players didn't regress when they clearly did regardless of what cause it injury, new coach etc. You have to admit that their play at the end wasnt their best play. If they didn't regress what did they do?

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Under ferentz, we've had game manager qb's, with the exceptions of Tate and Banks. Their ceilings can only be so high. On the positive side, their floors are generally only so low. They're....medium. And that's what we've seen at qb for the past 16 years. I think CJ was made to appear medium because of the system. That's my 2 cents.

 

[revkev73]

I am always puzzled why a top rated QB or wide receiver would want to play Kirk ball.

What reasons would there be?

 

[PCHawk]

I am always puzzled why a top rated QB or wide receiver would want to play Kirk ball.

What reasons would there be?

QB would want to play here to play in a pro style. Wide receivers don't have any reasons to play here and it shows in recruiting.

 

[lazyhawkfan]

Tate had an oblique issue. Those take a long time to heal, with complete rest. Tate didn't have that. He missed one game. So yeah, it impacts it.

Jake was not a multi-year starter. He started the opener in 2008, then Stanzi started, then Jake, then Stanzi the rest of the way. Seems silly to include him in the discussion when he wasn't good enough to be a multi-year starter. As for 3&4, teams change from year to year. I've hammered Iowa on WR recruiting. Not going to keep chasing my tail on this.

Concerning jake, If you were a starter for a season but couldn't continue to develop well enough to hold your spot the following season especially when you were considered a highly ranked recruit, doesn't that say something about the lack of qb development? Why is this argument only about players who did start two full seasons and not include those who lost their job with eligibility left after having started a full season?

 

[PCHawk]

Concerning jake, If you were a starter for a season but couldn't continue to develop well enough to hold your spot the following season especially when you were considered a highly ranked recruit, doesn't that say something about the lack of qb development? Why is this argument only about players who did start two full seasons and not include those who lost their job with eligibility left after having started a full season?

Because then you can argue that they developed the backup so well that they became the starter. When you can counter an argument that easily, it's pointless to make that arguement.

 

[DDThompson]

Why would a qb who was injured his whole year be relevant in a topic about whether or not QB's regress or not under a coaching staff? Why would a qb who sucked the whole time he was here and never even played his senior year be relevant in this topic?

because if he includes those into KF can't develop QBs then it ...
narrFITSative

 

[DDThompson]

Concerning jake, If you were a starter for a season but couldn't continue to develop well enough to hold your spot the following season especially when you were considered a highly ranked recruit, doesn't that say something about the lack of qb development? Why is this argument only about players who did start two full seasons and not include those who lost their job with eligibility left after having started a full season?

Maybe.

Or maybe that says something about the recruit ranking services not being omniscient like coaches aren't.

Or maybe that means KF recruited a more talented QB. Kinda like CJB pushing out Rudock.

 

[DDThompson]

You may also find it relevant that Tate managed to rush for more yards in 2006 than 2005 even though he was “injured the whole time.” Not what you’d expect from such an injured player.

Gosh, I don't know.
I would think that an oblique muscle strain/tear would effect passing with an arm/upper body much much more than running with legs. With an oblique injury it makes sense Tate would try to do more with his feet than force with arm.

It's only in soccer you pass with your legs. Real football it's arm/oblique muscle.

 

[pmchawk]

I have to disagree with your last paragraph. The New England Patriots run the same type of passing offense as GD employed (having QBs and receivers find the soft spots in pass coverage).

NE is one of the most successful passing teams in all of pro football and do it without a super athletic QB or wide receivers. New England has, for example, high-star 'athletes' receiver from Texas Tech (Amendola), TEs Gronkowski (Arizona) and Chandler (Iowa), receiver but former QB from Kent State Edelman and QB Brady picked in the sixth round of the NFL draft.

Getting open is most important than athleticism (running static passing routes) assuming Iowa can't get athletes at receiver and QB. Besides, most of the NFL teams employ some sort of getting open scheme to passing so the scheme would best prepare Iowa receivers for the NFL.

Notice you talked about TE as receivers which was something GD didn't utilize

 

[IowaLawWasRight]

Having an excuse for why the QBs didn't improve much does not defeat the premise that the QBs did not improve much. Perhaps the more accurate statement is that Iowa QBs do not improve as much as QBs from other schools tend to improve? This is backed up not only by the win loss records Jon mentions, but by the fact that we have not had a QB throw a pass in the NFL in what, 20 years? I think we've had more success literally at every other position, including kicker and punter.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

I am always puzzled why a top rated QB or wide receiver would want to play Kirk ball.

What reasons would there be?

I think Iowa has taken more shots this year then under GD. We haven't connected on as many but that's where that often brought up word of execution comes up. I think Stanley before he's done will be one heck of a QB. Stat wise he's already on pace for a monster year. Once the young receivers we have improve and get more reps with him along with BF getting into more of the swing of things the skys the limit. The Oline stabilizing and getting running game going sure wouldn't hurt to help all that too...

 

[lightning1]

This is true but there are other macro factors...such as

TATE: He suffered an oblique injury in training camp going into his senior year. In baseball, that takes 6 to 8 weeks of NOTHING to heal from. Tate never had 'nothing' time to heal. Also as a soph, his stats were better...but his defense wasn't. The 2004 to 2005 defenses were not comparable.

STANZI: Senior Rick was absolutely the best Ricky Stanzi. He didn't lose leads late in five games. Iowa had DL depth issues, and those guys were gassed.

JVB: The move to the Davis system pretty much killed him, and the Iowa offense. He had one of the best statistical seasons ever by an Iowa QB as a junior, throwing for 3000+ yards and 25 TD's. The only two QB's in Iowa history to throw for 3000+ yards and 25 or more TD's? Chuck Long and JVB...to go from that to just 8 passing TD's and the worst or second worst Iowa passing offense in the last 40 years the next year is NOT on JVB.

RUDOCK: Junior Rudock was better than soph Rudock, and the Iowa defense went from 9th in scoring D in 2013 to 50th in 2014.

CJB: He was told not to run as a senior. If you want to go here, you can. Frankly of all of them, this would be the biggest coaching impact, along with the change to Davis. But CJB was just never a healthy QB, physically, at Iowa after the ISU game in 2015, the second game that year.

I know folks won't agree in step with me...but I am convinced of this...so in advance, I will agree to disagree with some of you

Absolutely agree on Tate. He played injured his SR year. Same with CJB.
My post was basically saying that our QB's DON'T regress. I apologize, as I did not listen to the podcast. Rather, It appeared that the other posters said that YOU claimed our QB's did regress under KF.
I think you are spot on with JVB as well. For some reason he couldn't get the Davis System.

 

[HawkGold]

This discussion really is still about pro and con KF. We have a few posters who are ridiculously negative and a few who are ridiculously positive. Most are not real apart in the middle albeit some a bit more positive and some a bit more negative.

Doesn't the thing about KF really get down to this:

A young inexperienced QB plays well against OSU on the road and almost throws a pick but still did some amazing things prior. The offense had been moving the ball. Then with a chance to play for the win and within striking distance the Hawks play for overtime and lose?

Doesn't that really surmise and boil the attitudes about KF? It could have worked and it didn't. Then if my memory is correct Iowa goes on a downward spiral for a time?

Win that game and I imagine the negatives wouldn't be as loud.

 

[thetrza]

We aren't the only ones longing for old Iowa quarterbacks:

 

[HaydenHawk56]

We aren't the only ones longing for old Iowa quarterbacks:

LOL!