Is mental toughness real?

[Bigtenchamp]

So, I guess it's like pornography. You know it when you see it? It seems tough to define.

Being able to go the free throw line and hit clutch FT's when it matters = mental toughness.

End of the game situation where everything is rushed: keeping calm, thinking and not panicking = mental toughness.

A coach getting in your face and yet you stay composed and listen = mental toughness.

Not crying and blaming everyone else when you fail at something = mental toughness

Being able to play well in a game and not just practice = mental toughness.

Being able to focus and think in the middle of a battle = mental toughness.

I could liste about 100 things but not sure what's the worth.

Basically mental toughness is being able to handle pressure.

It's in all walks of life and you can see it.

 

[WindsorHawk]

Per Wikipedia...

Mental toughness - a term commonly used by coaches, sport psychologists, sport commentators, and business leaders - generally describes a collection of attributes that allow a person to persevere through difficult circumstances (such as difficult training or difficult competitive situations in games) and emerge without losing confidence.
Mental toughness is a contested term, in that many people use the term liberally to refer to any set of positive attributes that helps a person to cope with difficult situations. Coaches and sport commentators freely use the term mental toughness to describe the mental state of athletes who persevere through difficult sport circumstances to succeed. Only within the past ten years has scientific research attempted a formal definition of mental toughness as a psychological construct.

"Mental toughness is many things and rather difficult to explain. Its qualities are sacrifice and self-denial. Also, most importantly, it is combined with a perfectly disciplined will that refuses to give in. It’s a state of mind – you could call it ‘character in action.’"

 

[Bigtenchamp]

Mike Gessell is a 80% + free throw shooter his entire life... all his high school stats ect ect.

All the sudden he is missing at the end of the games (see ISU) and his FT% is way down overall (because its in his head).

It right there to witness.

 

[woodyk1]

Being able to go the free throw line and hit clutch FT's when it matters = mental toughness.

End of the game situation where everything is rushed: keeping calm, thinking and not panicking = mental toughness.

A coach getting in your face and yet you stay composed and listen = mental toughness.

Not crying and blaming everyone else when you fail at something = mental toughness

Being able to play well in a game and not just practice = mental toughness.

Being able to focus and think in the middle of a battle = mental toughness.

I could liste about 100 things but not sure what's the worth.

Basically mental toughness is being able to handle pressure.

It's in all walks of life and you can see it.

What's a clutch free throw? Don't they all matter? What's the criteria?

Keeping calm can be tough the entire game, not just the end of the game. What time does that kick in?

I agree that handling pressure can be different for different players/performers. My issue is defining it. You think you can watch a game or performance and see it. I don't think it is quite that easy. In baseball, you can throw a great pitch, and the hitter can hit it anyway. It doesn't make either player less mentally tough. In football, the perfect block can spring a runner on a long gain. It doesn't make the defender not mentally tough. And, in basketball, a player can miss a shot or someone can score on them when they play great defense. It doesn't make them less mentally tough.

You still haven't addressed the question I asked about practice players. Are they not mentally tough? Or, are they less talented?

 

[WindsorHawk]

Per Wikipedia...

Mental toughness - a term commonly used by coaches, sport psychologists, sport commentators, and business leaders - generally describes a collection of attributes that allow a person to persevere through difficult circumstances (such as difficult training or difficult competitive situations in games) and emerge without losing confidence.

I find this to be very interesting. Mike Gesell has missed shots and free throws at the end of games. Yet he continues to put himself in those situations. See Michigan State end of OT...for example. The fact that Gesell has struggled but continues to be confident and persevere suggests he has mental toughness...IMO.

I will take it a step further. McCabe continues to take multiple threes in a game even though he's struggling to make them. Marble continues to want the basketball at the end of games...even though he has missed some game winners.

There are other examples on this team...Gesell, McCabe and Marble are just 3 of them. I think Fran also fits this definition. So if 3 or more players and the coach have mental toughness then the argument can be made that this team has some level of mental toughness collectively...confident they can win even after a difficult loss.

Mental toughness is real. There is also quite a bit of it on this team...IMO. I think last year's NIT run is a good collective (team) example.

 

[Bigtenchamp]

Not all situations... even with a game itself have the same levels of pressure.

It's always changing you are giving all these examples like they exist in vacuum.

We see people choke in pressure situations all the time... are you trying to say this doesn't exist? Because it does.

Some guys are good and practice but not in games because they can't handle the pressure of games.. I though I did answer it.

So the run for a first down I make in a pre-season football game is just the same as a play in the Super Bowl?

Because that's basically your argument at the moment - that every play at every moment of any game has the same pressure.

It can't always be seen of course not.... but their are moments when it's quite obvious.

And when Fran talks about it... like he did after MSU... I believe he knows it from his players quite well.

As any coach did... or player knows of themselves.

 

[WindsorHawk]

Mike Gessell is a 80% + free throw shooter his entire life... all his high school stats ect ect.

All the sudden he is missing at the end of the games (see ISU) and his FT% is way down overall (because its in his head).

It right there to witness.

I will argue (based on Wikipedia's definition) that Gesell is mentally tough...if he's confident when he steps to the line to take the free throws at the end of a game. The definition of mental toughness suggests that having the confidence to try despite previous failures is more important than actually being successful when trying. If Gesell is confident and perseveres then success will most likely follow at some point...IMO.

 

[woodyk1]

Not all situations... even with a game itself have the same levels of pressure.

It's always changing you are giving all these examples like they exist in vacuum.

We see people choke in pressure situations all the time... are you trying to say this doesn't exist? Because it does.

Some guys are good and practice but not in games because they can't handle the pressure of games.. I though I did answer it.

So the run for a first down I make in a pre-season football game is just the same as a play in the Super Bowl?

Because that's basically your argument at the moment - that every play at every moment of any game has the same pressure.

It can't always be seen of course not.... but their are moments when it's quite obvious.

And when Fran talks about it... like he did after MSU... I believe he knows it from his players quite well.

As any coach did... or player knows of themselves.

No, my point is the pressure happens differently at different times for players/performers. The player who is an undrafted free agent feels pressure during the preseason game that the veteran player who already made the team does not. Also, when you say a player chokes in pressure situations, it depends on the situation. If a team misses 10 free throws in the 1st half, they might not be in the position to miss those same free throws in the second half under pressure because the game is not close. If a pitcher gives up 5 runs in the 1st inning, the closer may not feel pressure coming in the late innings of that game. All innings matter. If mental toughness is based on pressure situations, my point is defining the pressure situation and how players react. A good team has good practices against the players who don't play in games. Those players feel pressure in practice that the starters/subs who play don't feel.

Mental toughness is not always defined by the timing of the pressure. If you have a work deadline and you get the work done early, there's no pressure. Still mentally tough.

 

[uihawk82]

Please describe how you describe mental toughness. I am interested.

I describe it as not quitting even when thinks look bleak. The old saying "when the going gets tough the tough get going" describes it very well.

It is perseverance and digging down to give even more.

Mentally tough does not necessarily equate with wins.

When you see an athlete back down, look beat and hanging their head then I would say they werent mentally tough at that time. As bad as an Iowa wrestler might be getting beat they keep trying hard.

For example, I thought the Broncos defense looked mentally weak and physically weak in the super bowl. A mentally tough defense would have been yelling at each other and upping their game to get some stops.

I have been athletically overwhelmed in competition a long time ago but I kept trying as hard as I could and even tried to up my mental level to help make up for my physical deficiency.

I think most or all of our Bball players are mentally tough but it can be hard when you are collectively not a great bunch of shooters.

 

[Bigtenchamp]

I will argue (based on Wikipedia's definition) that Gesell is mentally tough...if he's confident when he steps to the line to take the free throws at the end of a game. The definition of mental toughness suggests that having the confidence to try despite previous failures is more important than actually being successful when trying. If Gesell is confident and perseveres then success will most likely follow at some point...IMO.

I guess you could say its to be determined then... but so far this year he has not been confident in key situations from the line.

I'm sure Mike would tell you this himself.

 

[woodyk1]

I describe it as not quitting even when thinks look bleak. The old saying "when the going gets tough the tough get going" describes it very well.

It is perseverance and digging down to give even more.

Mentally tough does not necessarily equate with wins.

When you see an athlete back down, look beat and hanging their head then I would say they werent mentally tough at that time. As bad as an Iowa wrestler might be getting beat they keep trying hard.

For example, I thought the Broncos defense looked mentally weak and physically weak in the super bowl. A mentally tough defense would have been yelling at each other and upping their game to get some stops.

I have been athletically overwhelmed in competition a long time ago but I kept trying as hard as I could and even tried to up my mental level to help make up for my physical deficiency.

I think most or all of our Bball players are mentally tough but it can be hard when you are collectively not a great bunch of shooters.

A mentally tough defense would have been yelling at each other? Really? How do you know that Denver was trying as hard as they can, but Seattle was just better?

Also, you seem to describe mentally tough as happening only when things look bleak. What about the prepared athlete that dominates because he never gets behind and doesn't have to dig down even more. He/she is always at the top of their game, no matter what the situation. That is mentally tough, IMO.

 

[WindsorHawk]

You still haven't addressed the question I asked about practice players. Are they not mentally tough? Or, are they less talented?

I know this isn't directed at me but I will give my opinion. Mental toughness when boiled down to one word seems to be confidence.

A practice player can have mental toughness (confidence)...in a practice situation. The same player may enter a game with less confidence and therefore no longer have the mental toughness said player had in practice. I consider this to be a good practice player that doesn't perform as well in a game situation. See my earlier post on practice versus game situations.

Now the player may struggle in a game situation but be just as confident as in practice and continue to try (persevere). The player is not having game success but still has mental toughness because he still believes the next shot is going in the basket. McCabe may have the most mental toughness of any player on the team the last few games...being totally serious.

 

[hawkfan33]

Eric May wasn't even mentally tough enough to try to make a bigger impact on the offensive end thus costing Iowa a chance to make the NCAA tournament. Instead he went out in the NIT, which maybe was where someone with his mental make up is more comfortable. He just wasn't mentally ready for the big stage of the NCAA tournament.

 

[WindsorHawk]

I guess you could say its to be determined then... but so far this year he has not been confident in key situations from the line.

I'm sure Mike would tell you this himself.

This is where we disagree. Mike has not had success. You can't declare that Mike isn't confident when he goes to the line. I think he is confident. I also think Mike would tell me he thinks he's going to make every one of those free throws.

 

[woodyk1]

I know this isn't directed at me but I will give my opinion. Mental toughness when boiled down to one word seems to be confidence.

A practice player can have mental toughness (confidence)...in a practice situation. The same player may enter a game with less confidence and therefore no longer have the mental toughness said player had in practice. I consider this to be a good practice player that doesn't perform as well in a game situation. See my earlier post on practice versus game situations.

Now the player may struggle in a game situation but be just as confident as in practice and continue to try (persevere). The player is not having game success but still has mental toughness because he still believes the next shot is going in the basket. McCabe may have the most mental toughness of any player on the team the last few games...being totally serious.

Thanks for the opinion. My point is that only so many players can play (any sport). The numbers game is what it is. Sometimes, the practice player is too small, too slow, etc. but is just as mentally tough (if not more) than the players who play in games. And yes, there are talented players who don't play because they are not mentally tough during the games. I just don't think someone can point to a missed free throw/shot as not being mentally tough. How about the missed block out, missed defensive rotation, missed close out? Do those count as well (not directed just at you, WH )?

 

[woodyk1]

This is where we disagree. Mike has not had success. You can't declare that Mike isn't confident when he goes to the line. I think he is confident. I also think Mike would tell me he thinks he's going to make every one of those free throws.

Agreed!

 

[Bigtenchamp]

This is where we disagree. Mike has not had success. You can't declare that Mike isn't confident when he goes to the line. I think he is confident. I also think Mike would tell me he thinks he's going to make every one of those free throws.

I don't know how you can say this... Mike G - shoots 80% his entire life. He goes to the line (mostly in pressure situations) and its missing way more than in the past.

You see confidence?

That doesn't seem very logical to me..

 

[WindsorHawk]

I don't know how you can say this... Mike G - shoots 80% his entire life. He goes to the line (mostly in pressure situations) and its missing way more than in the past.

You see confidence?

That doesn't seem very logical to me..

You want to assume what you're saying is true when it may not be true. You are stating his lack of confidence as a fact. I am stating what I think...that Mike is confident at the line. I'm not saying I know this for a fact.

I also wanted an objective definition of mental toughness. That's why I did the Google search and grabbed the Wikipedia definition. This is a generally accepted definition rather than yours, mine, woody's, etc. The definition of mental toughness relates to being able to persevere and stay confident...not necessarily succeed. Using the actual definition as the premise for my post(s) is very logical...IMO.

 

[uihawk82]

A mentally tough defense would have been yelling at each other? Really? How do you know that Denver was trying as hard as they can, but Seattle was just better?

Also, you seem to describe mentally tough as happening only when things look bleak. What about the prepared athlete that dominates because he never gets behind and doesn't have to dig down even more. He/she is always at the top of their game, no matter what the situation. That is mentally tough, IMO.

Oh this is most definitely true. When athletes, professionals are at the top of their game you hear it described as they are in a zone, total focus, which definitely goes into being mentally tough and having only one goal.

I used my examples because the general threads on HN have to do with players making mistakes and not getting the job done.

 

[Bigtenchamp]

You want to assume what you're saying is true when it may not be true. You are stating his lack of confidence as a fact. I am stating what I think...that Mike is confident at the line. I'm not saying I know this for a fact.

I also wanted an objective definition of mental toughness. That's why I did the Google search and grabbed the Wikipedia definition. This is a generally accepted definition rather than yours, mine, woody's, etc. The definition of mental toughness relates to being able to persevere and stay confident...not necessarily succeed. Using the actual definition as the premise for my post(s) is very logical...IMO.

Of course we can never know what's insides someones head... no way to be 100% factual on that.

But a repeated pattern over a number of games isn't really a fluke - it shows that somethings going on.

And to me (from playing basketball myself, from watching it my entire life, from coaching sports for years) it looks like he is struggling mentally.

I.e. lacking confidence