Is it Iowa vs PSU(brands vs Cael) or is it IA vs PA????

[bluemolson14]

I wasnt sure where to post this, so I decided to start a new thread. A lot of posts lately regarding PSU(winning), is our coaching staff the right one, is it recruiting, etc...In my mind, recruiting is the key without a doubt and at this point, PSU is getting better kids each and every year. Keep in mind, no one was questioning Brands as a coach 3 or 4 years ago when we were winning titles(understandably so by the way), but is he a worse coach now than before? I am pretty sure that isnt the case. Is Cael a better coach than he was at ISU?, hard to say for sure, I think he is, but what I do know, is that he has better talent than he had at ISU. Before Cael showed up in Happy Valley, the east coast talent went to a lot of eastern schools in addition to PSU(Lehigh, Harvard, Cornell, Penn, V Tech etc), as well as Iowa, Okie State and Minn. Keep in mind this is a serious pool of talent to choose from. The following is from the most recent Intermat high school rankings. I have listed the weight class and then either PA or IA(and then the rankings for the respective ranked kids in that class)

106 PA(2,4,19) IA(none)..........113 PA(1,17) IA(none).............120 PA(1,4,7,9,11) IA(15).............126 PA(5,6,8) IA(none)...........132 PA(2,3,17,19)............ IA(none)138...........PA(3,7,9) IA(2,18)((Keep in mind, F Stroker is #2 here).................145 PA(2,3,6,12) IA(16)................152 PA(10,11) IA(none).............. 160 PA(4,17,18) ...............170 PA(1,5) IA(17)..................182 PA(5,18) IA(none) ..................195 PA(16) IA(5)....................220 PA(7,18) IA(none)................285 PA(2) IA(none)


That is 37 kids from PA with an average ranking of 8.3. IA has 7 with an average ranking of 12.5. If you take Stroker out, as he is really from out east, then IA has 6 with an average rank of 14.3. I realize that IA has had better groups in the past(a few years ago Iowa schools were stacked), but in general this is what we can expect….As of Intermat’s current list, PSU has 3 commitments: 145lbs(#2 ranked from PA), 182lbs(#1ranked from TX) and 285lbs(#1 ranked from CA). Iowa has 3 committs as well: 138lbs(#10 ranked from MN), 145lbs(#16 from IA) and 170lbs(#15 from NY)…That gives PSU 3 commits for an average ranking of 1.33 and Iowa with 3 commits for an average rank of 13.66. SIDENOTE: Northwestern has 3 recruits right now(2,2 and 1) and UNI has 4 (7,4,17 and 7)

A great example of the talent that PA has is Mitchell Port(#1 ranked at 141 for Edinboro). I can’t find what he was ranked as a senior, but he only won one state title as a high schooler in PA. So here is a kid that managed just one state title, made it to the round of 12 as a freshman, runner up as a soph and now #1 ranked as a junior. Now I don’t want to say anything negative about Tim Flynn and his staff(cliff moore is an asst by the way), but I find it hard to believe that they are better at developing talent than Brands & Co and if I am right in saying that, and 1-time state champs from PA are that good, how good are the 3 or 4 timers that Cael keeps signing? Also, PSU’s current roster has 35 wrestlers, 26 of which are from PA(of the 9 that arent include: D Taylor, M Brown and J Lawson)

My point? I have been typing for so long I am not exactly sure. I guess I am just trying to put the situation in perspective with what we are up against. Its not just Cael’s name(and PSU’s recent success), but also the wrestling geography that PSU or Iowa is in. Cael can not only pull from around the country(CA and TX for example), but he coaches in arguably the best state to recruit from in the entire nation. When we were in our hay day, of course Gable was the “nameâ€, but the “other†names out there(coaches at Minn, OK St, Okla, ISU etc) werent located in the hottest hotbed of high school wrestling. I have said before on this site that we will win again, and I still believe that, but it wont be easy and it certainly wont be as often as we are used to or would like it to be. The ball in is Cael’s court, and unfortunately it may be there for as long as he wants it to be. He was highly criticized when he bolted from ISU, but in retrospect, who could blame him?

GO Hawks and lets kick OSU's butt.

 

[Sparky]

People forget that when Brands won his NCs he had Gable in the wrestling room with him assisting him. Gable had a talent for taking guys nobody knew and turning them into legends. We're never going to get that again with an Iowa coach. Ever.

 

[goiahawks]

Spot on blue. The perfect storm has been brewing for the past few years. As the northeast has become better in HS wrestling, and is now the wrestling hot bed, PSU will have a better chance at the best wrestlers. A high tide raises all ships. Cael saw this coming and took advantage of it. You have to give him credit for what he's done and continues to do at PSU. How many people thought he was crazy when they first heard he was leaving ISU to go to PSU? He proved a lot of people wrong.

PSU is in the middle of a big run here. They've won 3 straight and show no signs of dropping off. With that said, they're going to lose two national champions this year so we'll see if their young guns can fill those rolls. I'm guessing he's got them stockpiled, similar to Iowa in the 80's - 90's.

 

[Dominate]

Excellent post Blue. I agree with everything you stated and believe Cael is in position to create quite a dynasty at PSU based on his ability to recruit the best wrestlers primarily from PA and OH. Also think Cael has improved as a head coach and will continue to do so. Hawks definitely have there work cut out for them to maintain pace with PSU.

 

[fuldose]

I wasnt sure where to post this, so I decided to start a new thread. A lot of posts lately regarding PSU(winning), is our coaching staff the right one, is it recruiting, etc...In my mind, recruiting is the key without a doubt and at this point, PSU is getting better kids each and every year. Keep in mind, no one was questioning Brands as a coach 3 or 4 years ago when we were winning titles(understandably so by the way), but is he a worse coach now than before? I am pretty sure that isnt the case. Is Cael a better coach than he was at ISU?, hard to say for sure, I think he is, but what I do know, is that he has better talent than he had at ISU. Before Cael showed up in Happy Valley, the east coast talent went to a lot of eastern schools in addition to PSU(Lehigh, Harvard, Cornell, Penn, V Tech etc), as well as Iowa, Okie State and Minn. Keep in mind this is a serious pool of talent to choose from. The following is from the most recent Intermat high school rankings. I have listed the weight class and then either PA or IA(and then the rankings for the respective ranked kids in that class)

106 PA(2,4,19) IA(none)..........113 PA(1,17) IA(none).............120 PA(1,4,7,9,11) IA(15).............126 PA(5,6,8) IA(none)...........132 PA(2,3,17,19)............ IA(none)138...........PA(3,7,9) IA(2,18)((Keep in mind, F Stroker is #2 here).................145 PA(2,3,6,12) IA(16)................152 PA(10,11) IA(none).............. 160 PA(4,17,18) ...............170 PA(1,5) IA(17)..................182 PA(5,18) IA(none) ..................195 PA(16) IA(5)....................220 PA(7,18) IA(none)................285 PA(2) IA(none)


That is 37 kids from PA with an average ranking of 8.3. IA has 7 with an average ranking of 12.5. If you take Stroker out, as he is really from out east, then IA has 6 with an average rank of 14.3. I realize that IA has had better groups in the past(a few years ago Iowa schools were stacked), but in general this is what we can expect….As of Intermat’s current list, PSU has 3 commitments: 145lbs(#2 ranked from PA), 182lbs(#1ranked from TX) and 285lbs(#1 ranked from CA). Iowa has 3 committs as well: 138lbs(#10 ranked from MN), 145lbs(#16 from IA) and 170lbs(#15 from NY)…That gives PSU 3 commits for an average ranking of 1.33 and Iowa with 3 commits for an average rank of 13.66. SIDENOTE: Northwestern has 3 recruits right now(2,2 and 1) and UNI has 4 (7,4,17 and 7)

A great example of the talent that PA has is Mitchell Port(#1 ranked at 141 for Edinboro). I can’t find what he was ranked as a senior, but he only won one state title as a high schooler in PA. So here is a kid that managed just one state title, made it to the round of 12 as a freshman, runner up as a soph and now #1 ranked as a junior. Now I don’t want to say anything negative about Tim Flynn and his staff(cliff moore is an asst by the way), but I find it hard to believe that they are better at developing talent than Brands & Co and if I am right in saying that, and 1-time state champs from PA are that good, how good are the 3 or 4 timers that Cael keeps signing? Also, PSU’s current roster has 35 wrestlers, 26 of which are from PA(of the 9 that arent include: D Taylor, M Brown and J Lawson)

My point? I have been typing for so long I am not exactly sure. I guess I am just trying to put the situation in perspective with what we are up against. Its not just Cael’s name(and PSU’s recent success), but also the wrestling geography that PSU or Iowa is in. Cael can not only pull from around the country(CA and TX for example), but he coaches in arguably the best state to recruit from in the entire nation. When we were in our hay day, of course Gable was the “name”, but the “other” names out there(coaches at Minn, OK St, Okla, ISU etc) werent located in the hottest hotbed of high school wrestling. I have said before on this site that we will win again, and I still believe that, but it wont be easy and it certainly wont be as often as we are used to or would like it to be. The ball in is Cael’s court, and unfortunately it may be there for as long as he wants it to be. He was highly criticized when he bolted from ISU, but in retrospect, who could blame him?

GO Hawks and lets kick OSU's butt.

wow crazy stats and most of the time numbers don't lie.my question is this, how or why is Iowa high school wrestling down so bad? Are the better athletes focusing on other sports such as football and just not wrestling? or is the quality of coaching slipping?

 

[CRlightweight]

Blue, great write up and I completely agree, Cael has a huge advantage being in Pennsylvania. It is LOADED with talent. When Cael moved to PSU years back a casual wrestling friend of mine said to me, "why would he leave ISU for PSU?" and I said at that time, because PSU is a sleeping giant. Well as we've all found out, the giant is awake. Very awake.
Obviously Brands can coach and so can Cael. They go about it in a different way, but both are proven. But here is where I feel Iowa/Brands can improve. And that is identifying and going after the correct talent. Just because Iowa high school talent isn't as good as other states any more doesn't mean we have to take a step back in recruiting. Oklahoma high school wrestling has fallen back, yet Okie state goes to Penn to get jordan oliver and marsteller. Wisconsin to get Dierenger, Ill to get Morrison, etc etc. Minn does the same thing going out of state to get top kids. Yes, Pennsylvania has the most studs but it's not like they all go to PSU. i just clicked on a couple weights and saw some of the highest ranked Penn kids signed with schools like Cornell, west virginia, Bucknell, Clarion, etc etc. You telling me Iowa couldn't get some of those kids?
yeah we haven't wrestled up to our standard the last couple of years but we're still the Iowa freakin hawks wrestling team. We are still an "it" spot when it comes to college wrestling. But I think one of the faults that our staff has had in the past is not going after some of the blue chippers to get "iowa style" guys who are less talented. Do you think Cael would ever even make a phone call to a kid like Kelly? The answer is no. It's so much harder in the current landscape of college wrestling to get a less talented kid and coach them up and pass elite talent that's at elite programs.
So you can't just throw your hands up and say we don't have as many good kids as them, we're destine to finish behind them (which obviously Brands would never do anyways) But you also can't say we're going to just keep getting 'our kids' and work harder. I know how hard they work down there, that's not really possible. I think they have to take a look in the mirror and say we need to beat the recruiting trail harder. More visits, more calls, more evaluation and if the best kid is Florida then go get him. Or if he's in Washington, go there. Brands and his staff can obviously coach, but I think they are a little old fashion when it comes to recruiting and that's the area that if they can change, they'll be right back to winning national titles. But of course, that's just all my opinion!

 

[CRlightweight]

wow crazy stats and most of the time numbers don't lie.my question is this, how or why is Iowa high school wrestling down so bad? Are the better athletes focusing on other sports such as football and just not wrestling? or is the quality of coaching slipping?

Well when comparing the two states one obvious reason is quantity. Iowa typically has less than 7000 high school wrestlers. PA usually has about 10,000. 3000+ extra kids in a wrestling heavy state to begin with is going to get you that many more studs. But I'm sure there are other variables.
One recent change in Iowa HS wrestling that will pay bigger dividends going forward is that more and more Iowa teams are competing in some of these big national tournaments Clash, Dvorak, etc. Top teams from other states have been doing that for years going to the Ironman and other tournaments like that. I really believe that will help elevate some of the best schools from Iowa. So we're a little late to the party, but better late than never.

 

[pumpdog20]

Blue, great write up and I completely agree, Cael has a huge advantage being in Pennsylvania. It is LOADED with talent. When Cael moved to PSU years back a casual wrestling friend of mine said to me, "why would he leave ISU for PSU?" and I said at that time, because PSU is a sleeping giant. Well as we've all found out, the giant is awake. Very awake.
Obviously Brands can coach and so can Cael. They go about it in a different way, but both are proven. But here is where I feel Iowa/Brands can improve. And that is identifying and going after the correct talent. Just because Iowa high school talent isn't as good as other states any more doesn't mean we have to take a step back in recruiting. Oklahoma high school wrestling has fallen back, yet Okie state goes to Penn to get jordan oliver and marsteller. Wisconsin to get Dierenger, Ill to get Morrison, etc etc. Minn does the same thing going out of state to get top kids. Yes, Pennsylvania has the most studs but it's not like they all go to PSU. i just clicked on a couple weights and saw some of the highest ranked Penn kids signed with schools like Cornell, west virginia, Bucknell, Clarion, etc etc. You telling me Iowa couldn't get some of those kids?
yeah we haven't wrestled up to our standard the last couple of years but we're still the Iowa freakin hawks wrestling team. We are still an "it" spot when it comes to college wrestling. But I think one of the faults that our staff has had in the past is not going after some of the blue chippers to get "iowa style" guys who are less talented. Do you think Cael would ever even make a phone call to a kid like Kelly? The answer is no. It's so much harder in the current landscape of college wrestling to get a less talented kid and coach them up and pass elite talent that's at elite programs.
So you can't just throw your hands up and say we don't have as many good kids as them, we're destine to finish behind them (which obviously Brands would never do anyways) But you also can't say we're going to just keep getting 'our kids' and work harder. I know how hard they work down there, that's not really possible. I think they have to take a look in the mirror and say we need to beat the recruiting trail harder. More visits, more calls, more evaluation and if the best kid is Florida then go get him. Or if he's in Washington, go there. Brands and his staff can obviously coach, but I think they are a little old fashion when it comes to recruiting and that's the area that if they can change, they'll be right back to winning national titles. But of course, that's just all my opinion!

Greatest post on the internet... ever.

 

[CRlightweight]

Greatest post on the internet... ever.

Hard to argue that. I agree

 

[bphawkeye]

I caution that the freestyle rankings are used here. i might be wrong there - but ncaa requires guys that wrestle folkstyle to win a title?

 

[CRwrestling]

Pretty sure the rankings used in this thread are folkstyle, and when you look at the stats of which states produce the most D1 qualifiers, AA's, and champions it's even more startling. Last year one third of the D1 AA's and 4 of the 10 champs wrestled in high school in Pennsylvania or Ohio. Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri combined for the same number of AA as Pennsylvania.

Penn. 13 AA (3 champions)
Ohio 11 AA (1 champion)
Cal. 7 AA
Ill. 6 AA
Miz. 4 AA
Iowa 3 AA (St. John, Moreno, Gadson)

 

[KWOODHAWK]

Pretty sure the rankings used in this thread are folkstyle, and when you look at the stats of which states produce the most D1 qualifiers, AA's, and champions it's even more startling. Last year one third of the D1 AA's and 4 of the 10 champs wrestled in high school in Pennsylvania or Ohio. Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri combined for the same number of AA as Pennsylvania.

Penn. 13 AA (3 champions)
Ohio 11 AA (1 champion)
Cal. 7 AA
Ill. 6 AA
Miz. 4 AA
Iowa 3 AA (St. John, Moreno, Gadson)




I think you forgot to count DSJ as a Champion in your above listing. Minor detail I know. Picky, picky, picky.