Iowa BBall... Who's Deserves the Blame?

A

azhawkphan

Well-Known Member
Let me be the thousandth person to say that the anti and pro Lickliter stuff is mind numbing at best... Apologies for the long post (speaking of mind numbing). But the state of my beloved Iowa BBall program is at or near an all time low. But why? Is it Lickliter? Alford? Mr. Davis? Barta? Bowlsby? Bump Elliot? Let's take a look...
Lute built something special when he took over from Dick Schultz in the late seventies... who knows what would have happened had Ronnie Lester not re-injured his knee.
Carver opened in 1983 replacing the raucous Fieldhouse with the more sterile environment of Carver. Nice facility with nice people that attend, but is it a selling point to today's recruits?
Raveling took over from Lute in 1984 and brought in some incredible recruits, but couldn't coach them. If he would have stayed, Iowa might have been put on probation or at least 3/4 of the team suspended from the stories I have heard (had the internet and today's media attention been around then). He finished with a 54-36 record at Iowa finishing no better than 5th in conference.
Mr. Davis took over in 1987 and had some great years with Ravelings recruits. Once Ravelings recruits left starting with the 1990 season, Iowa basketball returned to mediocrity. Yes Mr. Davis had some nice teams that finished in the top 5 in conference (and many others that didn't) and made it to the second round of the NCAAs, but Mr. Davis's teams only finished the Big Ten schedule with less than 7 losses only once after 1990. We ran Mr. Davis off because this was not good enough.
So we bring in Alford in 2000. Iowa basketball falls further after he came in with big expectations. My understanding was that he was promised upgrades in the facilities as our facilities 10 years ago are terrible. What happened to the upgrades he was promised? He doesn't get them, he drives the Iowa basketball program further into the ground, and is a *** about it on his way out. Yes, he had a decent season in 2006, but with a very veteran team made up of native Iowans as the leaders.
Alford burns every last bridge as he leaves and we bring in Lickliter. Is this mess Lick's fault? His "system" does not seem to be working and is boring. Others say the can't recruit... but what does he have to sell? We are in year 3, and new facilities have just begun construction. Iowa's success isn't so recent and not much of a bball history before that. We have not won a BT title since we shared one in 1979, went to a final four in 1980, and had success in 1950s. We don't have a history sending kids to the NBA save Ravelings recruits and a couple others here or there. This success is all before today's recruits were even born! Although I love the location, I can see why recruits not from Iowa are not psyched to come to IC.
IMHO, our troubles go deeper than the coach, and it starts with the facilities and this falls on the shoulders of Elliot, Bowlsby, and Barta for not getting the BBall facilities upgraded sooner and keeping the momentum of the 80's going. If we bring in a new coach now, does this drastically change anything? IMO, no. This is one reason Lickliter got a 7 yr. contract. Barta knew it would take a couple of years to get the facilities going... So let's see what Lickliter can do in the next couple of years. The last recruiting class seems to be an upgrade, next year's recruiting class will be crucial for him. If he can't get it done then, I think not only will Lick be gone but so will Barta.
 
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Good post. I would agree 100% on the practice facilities. When you look at athletics in todays world, you have to offer more than just a history, you have to have the state of the art facilities to go with it. I remember Carver opening and it was the best in the country. That was a long time ago. Our football facilities are some of the best in the country and look at the prospects reaction. We can get there but we need to give Lick something to work with.
 
RADMAN said:
Good post. I would agree 100% on the practice facilities. When you look at athletics in todays world, you have to offer more than just a history, you have to have the state of the art facilities to go with it. I remember Carver opening and it was the best in the country. That was a long time ago. Our football facilities are some of the best in the country and look at the prospects reaction. We can get there but we need to give Lick something to work with.
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As nice as Carver supposedly was when opened, the fact is that it was never a hostile environment to opposing teams, certainly not like the Fieldhouse. The seating policy put the middle-aged and old fat cats (and fat butts) down around the floor where they could politely watch the game and not create chaos for opponents (or officials).

And you are correct, that was a long time ago.
 
Cause if there is one thing that is sure to fix the problem it's blamestorming...

I honestly dont see what the facination is with trying to find a scapegoat. We all know for a variety of reasons Iowa bbal sucks harder than the porn star Tiger knocked up. Assigning blame isn't going to fix it any sooner, why waste the energy?
 
DuffMan said:
Cause if there is one thing that is sure to fix the problem it's blamestorming...

I honestly dont see what the facination is with trying to find a scapegoat. We all know for a variety of reasons Iowa bbal sucks harder than the porn star Tiger knocked up. Assigning blame isn't going to fix it any sooner, why waste the energy?
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To divert the attention from the real problem, our current coach. I've watched paint dry that was more exciting.
 
DuffMan said:
Assigning blame isn't going to fix it any sooner, why waste the energy?
Click to expand...

Because assigning blame is all we have left.

Good original post. Everybody deserves blame.

Here comes some heresy: Steve Deace often says that sometimes after mediocre teams get ahead in a game, they look at their jersey and read the name on their chest. Oh, yeah, we're playing for Iowa. Hmm. We are right to expect more, but what if it ain't coming back? What if all we can hope for is mediocrity?

Until we make systemic changes (and that means more than new practice facilities), it ain't coming back.
 
"This is one reason Lickliter got a 7 yr. contract. Barta knew it would take a couple of years to get the facilities going... "


My question is...if Barta knew that our facilities were so horrible that he had to resort to giving an underqualified mid major coach a 7 yr contract to have a chance at success, why didn't he start the process while Alford was here? Did it just come to his attention when Lick got here? Of course not. Why give Alford the ultimatum if you knew it wasn't possible to get results quickly with our conditions? Obviously to get him to leave and give Barta the chance to make a big impact hire. Which is how AD's are usually judged(along with fund raising of course).

Were there no donor dollars then? One could argue it would be just as difficult to raise money in these times as it was then. Probably harder now considering we are experiencing the lowest point in Iowa basketball and a troubling economy.

I think it's more likely that Lick punked Barta into the 7 year deal with that as reasoning. Mainly because no other candidates were interested in coming to Iowa City. Barta was getting nervous because of the lack of interest in the Iowa job and Lick was Barta's last chance at an high profile hire. And that was only because of a NCOY award and 2 years of success in his career.

I agree with the OP though for the most part. Plenty of blame to go around.
 
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My OP was not to blamestorm really... It was to point out that there are systematic problems with our bball program that go way further up the chain than our coach, not necessarily all with Barta. I think the problems started in 1990 when Bump Elliot left and Bowlsby took over. There has been a steady decline since then. I also find it interesting that our football program declined around the same time after success in the 80s. Our problems did not start with our current coach or Alford. We did not capitalize on our success in the 80s. I think it is harder to raise $$$ today than it was years ago, but it looks like we are getting some infusion of cash into the bball program for much needed facilities (which I agree aren't the only problem). Lick is not going anywhere anytime soon and I agree that his system is like watching paint dry with the current players running it (although I am seeing progress IMO). However, I did enjoy watching his Butler teams not because of the underdog factor but because I enjoyed watching the way they played basketball. So I want to point out to all of the posters that think that our decline started with Lick and/or Alford are off base. We have not enjoyed success on the bball court since the late 80s IMO, it is going to take time to fix (better late than never Barta), and firing our coach now does not fundamentally change anything (except maybe we lose 84-68 instead of 64-52 on most nights).
 
tweeterhawk said:
As nice as Carver supposedly was when opened, the fact is that it was never a hostile environment to opposing teams, certainly not like the Fieldhouse. The seating policy put the middle-aged and old fat cats (and fat butts) down around the floor where they could politely watch the game and not create chaos for opponents (or officials).

And you are correct, that was a long time ago.
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Thanks for catching that... I was only a kid when I went to the games at the Fieldhouse, and it was a much different atmosphere to say the least than Carver. I like Carver, we have enjoyed a home court advantage there I understand, but it is a much more sterile environment than the Fieldhouse. The FH was much more student friendly and hostile.
 
Never having the chance to experience a game at the Field House, I can't comment on comparisons. But I do think Carver has the ability to provide a solid home court advantage. Moving the students around and having an exciting team on the floor would do wonders. And I like the idea of having a "no standing" section for people who would rather sit and watch the games. Leaving the rest of us to stand and scream without being scolded.
 
burky247 said:
Never having the chance to experience a game at the Field House, I can't comment on comparisons. But I do think Carver has the ability to provide a solid home court advantage. Moving the students around and having an exciting team on the floor would do wonders. And I like the idea of having a "no standing" section for people who would rather sit and watch the games. Leaving the rest of us to stand and scream without being scolded.
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There is plenty of blame to go around for the basketball program as a whole, and the way the past decade has gone. The blame for the product on the court THIS YEAR lies squarely on Lickliter. It is his team, and it's his job to get them to play as well as they can and to win games. That is not Barta's fault.

The fact that we have fallen so far behind on facilities, coaching changes/hires that some may call ill-advised, I have to give the credit to the AD's for that.

I agree though that doing something to get the students closer to the floor would help to improve the atmosphere at CHA.
 
azhawkphan said:
Let me be the thousandth person to say that the anti and pro Lickliter stuff is mind numbing at best... Apologies for the long post (speaking of mind numbing). But the state of my beloved Iowa BBall program is at or near an all time low. But why? Is it Lickliter? Alford? Mr. Davis? Barta? Bowlsby? Bump Elliot? Let's take a look...
Lute built something special when he took over from Dick Schultz in the late seventies... who knows what would have happened had Ronnie Lester not re-injured his knee.
Carver opened in 1983 replacing the raucous Fieldhouse with the more sterile environment of Carver. Nice facility with nice people that attend, but is it a selling point to today's recruits?
Raveling took over from Lute in 1984 and brought in some incredible recruits, but couldn't coach them. If he would have stayed, Iowa might have been put on probation or at least 3/4 of the team suspended from the stories I have heard (had the internet and today's media attention been around then). He finished with a 54-36 record at Iowa finishing no better than 5th in conference.
Mr. Davis took over in 1987 and had some great years with Ravelings recruits. Once Ravelings recruits left starting with the 1990 season, Iowa basketball returned to mediocrity. Yes Mr. Davis had some nice teams that finished in the top 5 in conference (and many others that didn't) and made it to the second round of the NCAAs, but Mr. Davis's teams only finished the Big Ten schedule with less than 7 losses only once after 1990. We ran Mr. Davis off because this was not good enough.
So we bring in Alford in 2000. Iowa basketball falls further after he came in with big expectations. My understanding was that he was promised upgrades in the facilities as our facilities 10 years ago are terrible. What happened to the upgrades he was promised? He doesn't get them, he drives the Iowa basketball program further into the ground, and is a *** about it on his way out. Yes, he had a decent season in 2006, but with a very veteran team made up of native Iowans as the leaders.
Alford burns every last bridge as he leaves and we bring in Lickliter. Is this mess Lick's fault? His "system" does not seem to be working and is boring. Others say the can't recruit... but what does he have to sell? We are in year 3, and new facilities have just begun construction. Iowa's success isn't so recent and not much of a bball history before that. We have not won a BT title since we shared one in 1979, went to a final four in 1980, and had success in 1950s. We don't have a history sending kids to the NBA save Ravelings recruits and a couple others here or there. This success is all before today's recruits were even born! Although I love the location, I can see why recruits not from Iowa are not psyched to come to IC.
IMHO, our troubles go deeper than the coach, and it starts with the facilities and this falls on the shoulders of Elliot, Bowlsby, and Barta for not getting the BBall facilities upgraded sooner and keeping the momentum of the 80's going. If we bring in a new coach now, does this drastically change anything? IMO, no. This is one reason Lickliter got a 7 yr. contract. Barta knew it would take a couple of years to get the facilities going... So let's see what Lickliter can do in the next couple of years. The last recruiting class seems to be an upgrade, next year's recruiting class will be crucial for him. If he can't get it done then, I think not only will Lick be gone but so will Barta.
Click to expand...

Barta will not be let go if Lickliter doesn't get it done.
 
tweeterhawk said:
As nice as Carver supposedly was when opened, the fact is that it was never a hostile environment to opposing teams, certainly not like the Fieldhouse. The seating policy put the middle-aged and old fat cats (and fat butts) down around the floor where they could politely watch the game and not create chaos for opponents (or officials).
Click to expand...

Back in my day, when we walked 15 miles to school uphill both ways, Carver was a hostile environment--depending on the game. I remember the place roaring and shaking when we played Purdue or MSU. But, that was when the student section started at about half-court, down near the floor, and wrapped around the southeast corner.

I remember my roommate and I sitting in the front row in 1996 in CHA. My roommate yelled at Ed Hightower, "What game are you watching?" and Hightower yelled back, "What game are YOU watching?" Freakin' awesome good memories. And Hightower is still a terrible official. :)

Carver is hostile if you fill it up with hostile people. It ain't the Field House, sadly, but it can be hostile.

Whoever decided to move the student section behind the basket was an idiot. Do it like Michigan does: put the student section directly behind the benches. Let opposing teams try to hear themselves think during time-outs.
 
I still think that as recently as 2001,when Bowlsby extended SA, and we averaged 15,500 fans, that we had a real shot at keeping that going. If BB had jumped on the practice facility then,(I know that the Kinnick project took first position,but they should have bit the bullet and started the bb facility in 2000 like promised)..it would have been on line by 2002-3....which is exactly when the recruiting needed a boost...after the Bru and Horner class...and the Haluska transfer...we had some disasterous classes...AT, and Carlton Reed, ect..Angle..our classes in 03,04 and 05 just destroyed any chances of maintaining momentum out of the bru/jeff/adam teams.
I know...PP also hurt a lot..but at least if BB had done as promised, SA's successor would have been in better shape.
If you remember, MSU had the great run in the late 90's with Cleeves, and they opened up their new arena and new facilities(which are unbelievable) right around 2000....so they their timing was perfect,and Izzo has kept it rolling ever since...not saying Iowa could have matched them,but if we had our facilities ready to roll in 2002...could have been different.
 
SpeedHawk24 said:
Then the old fogies will be p*ssed that they cant see over the student section.
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Give the old fogies the east side, give the students the west side. If the attendance is less than 5,000 for each game, there are PLENTY of good seats available.

Actually, give the old fogies the top 15 rows. That's fewer steps for them to climb down, anyway. And it's closer to the bathrooms. Who wants to walk down 40 rows if you're incontinent?
 
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