Interesting episode of HBO's Real Sports where ISU men's basketball is mentioned

[DesMoinesHawki]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/03/24/3730021/hbos-real-sports-with-bryant-gumbel.html

From the article:
"Baylor, Michigan and Iowa State are briefly mentioned as examples of schools who have intentionally created vague majors designed to keep athletes eligible, not educate them."

From another interesting piece ...
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...ation-rates/P3QxfXSFvfLBDJUmDDmLML/story.html

It just could be that public pressure, embarrassment after scandals or NCAA rules that last year began banning teams with chronic poor graduation rates are finally having their effect. Schools I would have disqualified from the tournament two years ago for having black graduation rates under 50 percent that made my cut this year include: Colorado, Kansas State, Michigan, Florida and Virginia.

But before we say “Stop the presses!” it is a long way before we call off the full-court press on this issue. The top programs on the court still are disproportionately poor in the classroom. Of the 13 lowest graduation rates in the tournament for black men, 8 are ranked in the final Associated Press Top 25 poll: Syracuse, Arizona, New Mexico, Ohio State, St. Louis, Iowa State, Connecticut and Wisconsin.

 

[kicker22]

Not a shot at Wiscy, but of the schools listed there probably the "whitest" in terms of black players on the team. I can easily see how their graduation numbers could be skewed based one fact that thy have very few black athletes. If one were to not graduate it would heavily affect the statistics based on sample size.

 

[tweeterhawk]

Waiting for the mustard and ketchup brigade in 3 ... 2... 1...

 

[DesMoinesHawki]

Not a shot at Wiscy, but of the schools listed there probably the "whitest" in terms of black players on the team. I can easily see how their graduation numbers could be skewed based one fact that thy have very few black athletes. If one were to not graduate it would heavily affect the statistics based on sample size.

I sort of thought the same thing about Wisky ...

 

[kicker22]

The weird thing is that I never thought of Wiscy having a low graduation rate.

 

[jo12208]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/03/24/3730021/hbos-real-sports-with-bryant-gumbel.html

From the article:
"Baylor, Michigan and Iowa State are briefly mentioned as examples of schools who have intentionally created vague majors designed to keep athletes eligible, not educate them."

From another interesting piece ...
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...ation-rates/P3QxfXSFvfLBDJUmDDmLML/story.html

It just could be that public pressure, embarrassment after scandals or NCAA rules that last year began banning teams with chronic poor graduation rates are finally having their effect. Schools I would have disqualified from the tournament two years ago for having black graduation rates under 50 percent that made my cut this year include: Colorado, Kansas State, Michigan, Florida and Virginia.

But before we say “Stop the presses!â€￾ it is a long way before we call off the full-court press on this issue. The top programs on the court still are disproportionately poor in the classroom. Of the 13 lowest graduation rates in the tournament for black men, 8 are ranked in the final Associated Press Top 25 poll: Syracuse, Arizona, New Mexico, Ohio State, St. Louis, Iowa State, Connecticut and Wisconsin.

Ask any fan across the nation which they would rather have. A top 10 football or basketball team or a top 10 graduation rate? The presidents of these colleges don't even care about graduation rates. Why should the fans? The answer is they don't.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

Ask any fan across the nation which they would rather have. A top 10 football or basketball team or a top 10 graduation rate? The presidents of these colleges don't even care about graduation rates. Why should the fans? The answer is they don't.

Only for PR purposes. That's it that's all. As long as they are making money nobody cares about graduation rates. It's fodder for us and a way to compare schools but it don't mean jack to the powers that be.

 

[BryceC]

This has been addressed many times but basically the study cited concluded in 2010. Everything in here is prior to Hoiberg and mostly due to the extreme # of transfers that resulted from Morgan and McD. As for the "easy athlete majors" I haven't ever seen them printed regard to what ISU was offering. I do know that a lot of athletes are pushed into something like sociology but that has gone on for decades.

 

[deanvogs]

This has been addressed many times but basically the study cited concluded in 2010. Everything in here is prior to Hoiberg and mostly due to the extreme # of transfers that resulted from Morgan and McD. As for the "easy athlete majors" I haven't ever seen them printed regard to what ISU was offering. I do know that a lot of athletes are pushed into something like sociology but that has gone on for decades.

Seriously Bryce? You are going to say EXTREME number of transfer and only list Morgan and McD???????? Fred has seen 12 players leave in his 4 years. How many transfers has he brought in 10-15? I mean he has turned over at least 25 kids in 4 years, but you are going to say Morgan and McD are extreme, and say the 2010 number are bad because of this? Then turn around and say it will improve since Fred is turning over 25 players in 4 year???

 

[Tierney]

Seriously Bryce? You are going to say EXTREME number of transfer and only list Morgan and McD???????? Fred has seen 12 players leave in his 4 years. How many transfers has he brought in 10-15? I mean he has turned over at least 25 kids in 4 years, but you are going to say Morgan and McD are extreme, and say the 2010 number are bad because of this? Then turn around and say it will improve since Fred is turning over 25 players in 4 year???

Doesn't Fran have a pay incentive in his contract on the number of players that graduate? I thought he did, but I could be wrong. Apparently Hoiberg doesn't have that kind of incentive.

 

[BryceC]

Good point, bad phrasing. The rules were that when a player transferred it was an APR hit, even if he was in good academic standing. That has changed. The transfers OUT were what used to really hurt. And it seemed more pronounced because it was the actual good players under Morgan and McD that were leaving.

So yes, the numbers will be much better because the players leaving ISU are in good academic standing, and the ones they are bringing in are graduating. In fact the APR numbers are jumping significantly.

Let's look at the #'s though. McD's first 4 classes: 21 players, 18 high school kids, 3 Jucos. Of those players:

16 transferred before eligibility was up.
One went to the NBA.
One went to Germany.
One only had one year of eligibilty (Gilstrap).
One high school player finished his eligibility (Garrett).
One JUCO finished his eligiblility (Vanderbeken).

I'm not sure if Garrett or VDB graduated.

So yes, I would consider that extreme. Zero graduates that I know of and basically everyone defecting at some point. So while people have complaints with how Fred does stuff his academic record is miles better than choir boy McDermott's.

 

[WindsorHawk]

Doesn't Fran have a pay incentive in his contract on the number of players that graduate? I thought he did, but I could be wrong. Apparently Hoiberg doesn't have that kind of incentive.

Does Hoiberg get to count them if they graduated elsewhere? He's getting 1 of those on a regular basis.

 

[racerhawk]

Good point, bad phrasing. The rules were that when a player transferred it was an APR hit, even if he was in good academic standing. That has changed. The transfers OUT were what used to really hurt. And it seemed more pronounced because it was the actual good players under Morgan and McD that were leaving.

So yes, the numbers will be much better because the players leaving ISU are in good academic standing, and the ones they are bringing in are graduating. In fact the APR numbers are jumping significantly.

Let's look at the #'s though. McD's first 4 classes: 21 players, 18 high school kids, 3 Jucos. Of those players:

16 transferred before eligibility was up.
One went to the NBA.
One went to Germany.
One only had one year of eligibilty (Gilstrap).
One high school player finished his eligibility (Garrett).
One JUCO finished his eligiblility (Vanderbeken).
I'm not sure if Garrett or VDB graduated.

So yes, I would consider that extreme. Zero graduates that I know of and basically everyone defecting at some point. So while people have complaints with how Fred does stuff his academic record is miles better than choir boy McDermott's.

Fred routinely takes players who have been dismissed from other programs (three good players come to mind right away).

Seems fishy Please explain.

 

[BryceC]

Fred routinely takes players who have been dismissed from other programs (three good players come to mind right away).

Seems fishy Please explain.

I look at it as Fred routinely takes the best players available. Frequently those are transfers with problems at their previous stop because they have talent and aren't snapped up by the big boys.

 

[docholihawk]

I believe the fake degrees that all of these wonderful high-character transfers receive are in the minimum wage restaurant industry.

 

[Knight78]

Not a shot at Wiscy, but of the schools listed there probably the "whitest" in terms of black players on the team. I can easily see how their graduation numbers could be skewed based one fact that thy have very few black athletes. If one were to not graduate it would heavily affect the statistics based on sample size.

If you look at the stats in the second link, their overall rate is 44%. With the rate for whites at 100% and the rate for blacks at 0%, that would mean there are more black players at Wisconsin.

 

[Knight78]

This has been addressed many times but basically the study cited concluded in 2010. Everything in here is prior to Hoiberg and mostly due to the extreme # of transfers that resulted from Morgan and McD. As for the "easy athlete majors" I haven't ever seen them printed regard to what ISU was offering. I do know that a lot of athletes are pushed into something like sociology but that has gone on for decades.

Really? Concluded in 2010? The numbers on the second link from the Boston Globe agree with The Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sports study that lists the teams that qualified for the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament. That study can be found here: http://www.tidesport.org/Grad Rates/The 2014 Division I Men's College Basketball Study.pdf

I got this with a quick Google and I'm certain I can find other studies with the same data. But pass it off all you want.

 

[Knight78]

Good point, bad phrasing. The rules were that when a player transferred it was an APR hit, even if he was in good academic standing. That has changed. The transfers OUT were what used to really hurt. And it seemed more pronounced because it was the actual good players under Morgan and McD that were leaving.

So yes, the numbers will be much better because the players leaving ISU are in good academic standing, and the ones they are bringing in are graduating. In fact the APR numbers are jumping significantly.

Let's look at the #'s though. McD's first 4 classes: 21 players, 18 high school kids, 3 Jucos. Of those players:

16 transferred before eligibility was up.
One went to the NBA.
One went to Germany.
One only had one year of eligibilty (Gilstrap).
One high school player finished his eligibility (Garrett).
One JUCO finished his eligiblility (Vanderbeken).

I'm not sure if Garrett or VDB graduated.

So yes, I would consider that extreme. Zero graduates that I know of and basically everyone defecting at some point. So while people have complaints with how Fred does stuff his academic record is miles better than choir boy McDermott's.

From the Boston Globe article talking about how the statistics are gathered: "It should be noted that 2003’s figure came before the NCAA created the Graduation Success Rate, a more generous calculation that no longer penalized schools for athletes who left early and gave them credit for transfers who graduated." (Did you even read the article?) So the schools are NOT penalized for players to transfer and still graduate. Nor are they penalized for players to leave for professional basketball.

And, as I stated earlier, the study cited THIS YEAR's teams. Not the teams from 2010 as you are trying to indicate.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

2 words: Troy Davis

 

[fsanford]

From the Boston Globe article talking about how the statistics are gathered: "It should be noted that 2003’s figure came before the NCAA created the Graduation Success Rate, a more generous calculation that no longer penalized schools for athletes who left early and gave them credit for transfers who graduated." (Did you even read the article?) So the schools are NOT penalized for players to transfer and still graduate. Nor are they penalized for players to leave for professional basketball.

And, as I stated earlier, the study cited THIS YEAR's teams. Not the teams from 2010 as you are trying to indicate.

The article you linked clearly indicates, "that the data covers the results for (freshmen classes of 2003-04, 2004-05, 2005-06 and 2006-07)"

Was Hoiberg around to recruit those classes?