Hayden and Kirk's records against the Big 3

ChosenChildren

ChosenChildren

Well-Known Member
As we get into the meat of the Big Ten season, I thought it was worthy to mention how Hayden and Kirk have done against the three other dominant programs of the Big Ten. Penn State, Michigan and Ohio State each have had tremendous success in the conference. Here are the records:

Hayden Fry

Michigan 4-11-1
Ohio St. 3-12-1
Penn St. 2-4-0
Overall: 9-27-2

Kirk Ferentz

Michigan 3-4-0
Ohio St. 1-6-0
Penn St. 8-2-0
Overall: 12-12-0

Kirk's overall winning percentage of 50% beats Hayden's 25%. Kirk has owned Penn State and basically broken even with Michigan (thus far). Both coaches have been dominated by the Buckeyes.

Hayden liked to play it wide open on offense most of the time. Kirk plays it close to the vest. I think Kirk's approach works better against the dominant teams.

Some more evidence when you look at bowl records:

Hayden's bowl record: 6-7-1
Record in January games: 0-3-0
Record in BCS games: 0-3-0

Kirk's bowl record: 5-3-0
Record in January games: 4-2-0
Record in BCS games: 1-1-0

Again, the conservative style works better, IMO.:p

I'm not sure about their records against Top 25 teams, but I'm betting you come up with the same conclusion.

My opinion: The Ferentz/KOK/Tressel style of ball leads to more big victories in the long run if the talent is there to compete at all (which it has been).

I don't understand the KOK bashers.:confused:
 
Great thread and I would agree 100% KF style is better for beating top programs on a regular basis. I think he is a few games under 500. vs the top 25 but I do not know the exact number my guess is 18-25
 
Hayden arguably played tougher Michigan and Penn St teams during that time span. I would not be to quick to stay Kirk is better for coaching the big games against the Big Three. This a different Big Ten Kirk is coaching in.
 
HaydenHawk56 said:
Hayden arguably played tougher Michigan and Penn St teams during that time span. I would not be to quick to stay Kirk is better for coaching the big games against the Big Three. This a different Big Ten Kirk is coaching in.
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Exactly.

Not to mention January bowl game records is comparing apples to rocks.
Now BCS caliber bowls is fine... KF has one more victory than Hayden did...lets hope he gets 10 more.
 
Yes, you are certainly correct that the records against the Big 3 (and the bowl records) don't tell the complete story.

The most telling statistic might be records against teams ranked in the Top 10 and Top 25 on the day they were played (regular season). I simply do not have access to that data. It would be extremely interesting to see their respective records.

For example, the win last night would count as a "Top 25" win since PSU was ranked in the Top 25 on the day they played Iowa.

Several wins last year were Top 25 wins (Penn State, Wisconsin, Michigan). Penn State was a Top 10 win.

Does anyone have that data for Hayden and Kirk? I'm not bashing Coach Fry (I loved his coaching style), I'm just trying to defend Kirk against the KOK bashers who want a more wide open offense. I'm just not convinced that the wide open style will work at Iowa
 
HaydenHawk56 said:
Hayden arguably played tougher Michigan and Penn St teams during that time span. I would not be to quick to stay Kirk is better for coaching the big games against the Big Three. This a different Big Ten Kirk is coaching in.
Click to expand...

Very true. Michigan and Penn St are not as dominant as they once were. Ironically...Hayden had plenty to do with that. He was the catalyst that helped breakdown the "Big 2-Little 8" dominance of Michigan and Ohio St.

As for style of play, 25-30 years ago the best way to beat power programs like Michigan, Nebraska, Penn St...who were loaded with big strong talent...was to play more wide open. Not so today.

KFz has done a great job, but it's not exactly an "apples-to-apples" comparision.
 
Iowa fans will not see a wide open style of offense week in and week out until they replace KF. I personally like Iowa's approach, it's built for not losing games. I like not losing games. It may not be fancy, but it wins games.
 
ChosenChildren said:
As we get into the meat of the Big Ten season, I thought it was worthy to mention how Hayden and Kirk have done against the three other dominant programs of the Big Ten. Penn State, Michigan and Ohio State each have had tremendous success in the conference. Here are the records:

Hayden Fry

Michigan 4-11-1
Ohio St. 3-12-1
Penn St. 2-4-0
Overall: 9-27-2

Kirk Ferentz

Michigan 3-4-0
Ohio St. 1-6-0
Penn St. 8-2-0
Overall: 12-12-0

Kirk's overall winning percentage of 50% beats Hayden's 25%. Kirk has owned Penn State and basically broken even with Michigan (thus far). Both coaches have been dominated by the Buckeyes.

Hayden liked to play it wide open on offense most of the time. Kirk plays it close to the vest. I think Kirk's approach works better against the dominant teams.

Some more evidence when you look at bowl records:

Hayden's bowl record: 6-7-1
Record in January games: 0-3-0
Record in BCS games: 0-3-0

Kirk's bowl record: 5-3-0
Record in January games: 4-2-0
Record in BCS games: 1-1-0

Again, the conservative style works better, IMO.:p

I'm not sure about their records against Top 25 teams, but I'm betting you come up with the same conclusion.

My opinion: The Ferentz/KOK/Tressel style of ball leads to more big victories in the long run if the talent is there to compete at all (which it has been).

I don't understand the KOK bashers.:confused:
Click to expand...

Couple things to keep in mind:

1. 85 scholarship limit. Was not in place during all of Hayden's tenure. Meaning big boys could stock talent. More level playing field under KF.

2. Big boys much "bigger" in Hayden's tenure. He was the one that actually broke the stranglehold that Michigan and OSU had on the conference. He did it by being wide open because he knew he couldn't do it playing their game.

3. Assistant coaches. I'd actually argue that one of the things that KF is doing that Hayden didn't was to keep continuity with assistant coaches. I think for a place like Iowa, continuity is much more important than having the "best" assistants. They need to be talented, sure, but more important, they need to have longevity. A place like Iowa is never going to get the best athletes, but if they can have a system and a program in place, fully bought in by the assistants that have been on the staff since the inception, it is much easier to perpetuate than having to constantly train new staff. I think this has much more to do with Kirk's success than actual style of play.
 
hawkdrummer1 said:
As for style of play, 25-30 years ago the best way to beat power programs like Michigan, Nebraska, Penn St...who were loaded with big strong talent...was to play more wide open. Not so today.
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I disagree with your final assessment. Wide-open offenses were and still are a pretty good way to compete with a team that has greater talent. That's why Northwestern and Indiana tend to give us fits. Imagine if those two just lined up in a Pro Form against us; we'd run them off the field.
 
KnightHawk9 said:
I disagree with your final assessment. Wide-open offenses were and still are a pretty good way to compete with a team that has greater talent. That's why Northwestern and Indiana tend to give us fits. Imagine if those two just lined up in a Pro Form against us; we'd run them off the field.
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Actually I agree with you, and Northwestern is a great example.

My point is back then it may have been the only way for a program like Iowa. With scholarship limits, and advancements in strength-training it's now more viable for a team like Iowa to run a "power" game, than when the big boys could just crush you.

Thus countering the previous inference that Kirk beats the big boys more because of his offensive style. Had Hayden tried to line up and just out-Michigan Michigan in 1985... it woulda been tough.
 
HaydenHawk56 said:
Hayden arguably played tougher Michigan and Penn St teams during that time span. I would not be to quick to stay Kirk is better for coaching the big games against the Big Three. This a different Big Ten Kirk is coaching in.
Click to expand...


I agree, in fact I don't even think it is arguable. PSU and Meatchicken were clearly much better programs when Fry was coach.
 
Not so fast, ChosenChildren.

While Hayden liked to play wide open football, he was always pretty conservative against Michigan and OSU.
 
Saginawbay said:
Great thread and I would agree 100% KF style is better for beating top programs on a regular basis. I think he is a few games under 500. vs the top 25 but I do not know the exact number my guess is 18-25
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Against top 25 teams - Kirk is 17-24 at Iowa
 
kuhntz said:
Exactly.

Not to mention January bowl game records is comparing apples to rocks.
Now BCS caliber bowls is fine... KF has one more victory than Hayden did...lets hope he gets 10 more.
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Yes.

Doesn't take anything away from KF, but if Hayden could have gotten into another BCS caliber bowl and not won the big ten he may have more as well. Thus far KF has not gotten Iowa into the conference's champion game. Two shared titles and was not the conference's representive either time. This may be the year.
 
I like this post. I see opportunity coming up this year to get above .500 for KF against the big 3 and to even the score with Michigan.
 
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