Hawkeyes Show Consistency

lightning1 said:
It wasn't just because of his record in his 4th year.
Year 1 - 30 wins
Year 2 - 24 wins
year 3 - 23 wins
year 4 - 12 wins
That's from the penthouse to the outhouse in 4 years. That's from John Calipari great season results to Todd Lickliter your fired results in 4 years! And Calipari won the National Championship in his 3rd year! That buys you a lot of good will. Poor comparison. Davis couldn't even win a BIG title. Much less a NC. Davis took the most talented roster Iowa has ever had and did NOTHING with it.
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An Elite 8 is not "nothing". So it's national title or bust for you, I guess. I know, he didn't maintain that same level of talent to remain a Top 5-10 program. But that doesn't mean we were mediocre.

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that Iowa lost a TON after year 3, Ray Thompson and Brian Garner were both ruled academically ineligible mid-season, Michael Ingram was playing on one leg, maybe Rodell Davis too IIRC.. Matt Bullard was out with a 2nd knee injury. And other than Les Jepsen, Iowa was playing mostly freshmen and sophomores. You think they weren't going to miss a beat? Nonsense. Oh, and that team was ranked in the Top 20 until all that went down. That team stays healthy and eligible, maybe 1989-90 goes a bit differently, ya think? Yeah, is what it is, but you can't just look at the record that year and simply declare "Davis sucked". There were some other circumstances.

They immediately bounced back to go to 3 straight tournaments, including a 4 seed in a year that saw the death of arguably the team's best player.. Certainly their heart and soul.

If you think Davis was mediocre.. Sorry, but you're wrong. Just, wrong. Most programs would be pretty happy with the kind of "mediocrity" we had under his leadership, I think.

LOL at the Lickliter comparisons. Guy never had a winning record at Iowa.
 
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And for the record - I'm not jumping up and down about an 11 seed in the first four, and two 7 seeds, but considering where we were a couple years before that, I think Fran's done a good job of getting us back to respectability. It's a nice start. I'd like to see where he can take it from here instead of just firing the guy and keeping the revolving door spinning.

If a few years from now we're not able to do any better than what we've seen, than yeah, I'll be the first to admit that's as far as Fran can take us and that things may be feeling stale.. Time will tell.
 


RobHowe said:
Since 1987, which is 31 years, here are the teams that have won or shared Big Ten regular season championships. We've won two conference tournament titles, so I'm guessing you're talking regular season:

Michigan St. (8)
Purdue (7)
Indiana (7)
Ohio St. (7)
Illinois (5)
Wisconsin (4)
Michigan (2)

So, that's seven teams. Likewise, those seven teams have won more Big Ten titles than Iowa in the history of the league. Iowa is eighth.

Wisconsin went from 1947-2002 without winning the conference.
Michigan 1986-2012 without winning.
Ohio St. had a drought that lasted from 1992-2006.
Illinois had gaps from '63-84 and then '84-98.

That's four of the seven teams that have won titles in the last 31 years that have had gaps without winning a championship for a decade.

McCaffery took over a program in its worst shape ever. Yet, you're asking for a Big Ten title AND a Sweet 16 in his first 10 years or you'd fire him. To me, that's unrealistic. That's my opinion based on history here and elsewhere in the league.

But, as I said, you're free to have whatever standards and expectations you choose. It's up to the individual and our happiness as a fans of a given team are connected to them.

I do believe your standards and expectations are in the minority of the Iowa fan base. Again, I can base that off of attendance that's increased under McCaffery and was the best in the nation for the NIT.

Could that change. Sure. It's fluid. Time will tell.

Someone could say that the Iowa fans are settling for mediocrity by supporting a team that falls below your standards and expectations. That charge is irrelevant. It's their money. If they want to go to games, it's their right. They're happy to support the program just like it's your right not to.
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You left off Minnesota, even though they later had that title removed. If my expectations are so out of line with the avg fan, why aren't season ticket sales sold out every year? I think my expectations are closer to realistic than yours are. Iowa fans are getting fed up and it's been obvious for a long, long time. When CHA is sold out every year, maybe your argument will have merit. The football stadium sells 70k every game. The basketball team can't manage 15k? I recall the days when season tickets were sell outs every year. Those days are long gone. Prices keep climbing and no conference titles have been delivered. The fans have higher expectations and they are expressing those expectations with their wallets.
 


1977Hawkeye said:
An Elite 8 is not "nothing". So it's national title or bust for you, I guess. I know, he didn't maintain that same level of talent to remain a Top 5-10 program. But that doesn't mean we were mediocre.

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that Iowa lost a TON after year 3, Ray Thompson and Brian Garner were both ruled academically ineligible mid-season, Michael Ingram was playing on one leg, maybe Rodell Davis too IIRC.. Matt Bullard was out with a 2nd knee injury. And other than Les Jepsen, Iowa was playing mostly freshmen and sophomores. You think they weren't going to miss a beat? Nonsense. Oh, and that team was ranked in the Top 20 until all that went down. That team stays healthy and eligible, maybe 1989-90 goes a bit differently, ya think? Yeah, is what it is, but you can't just look at the record that year and simply declare "Davis sucked". There were some other circumstances.

They immediately bounced back to go to 3 straight tournaments, including a 4 seed in a year that saw the death of arguably the team's best player.. Certainly their heart and soul.

If you think Davis was mediocre.. Sorry, but you're wrong. Just, wrong. Most programs would be pretty happy with the kind of "mediocrity" we had under his leadership, I think.

LOL at the Lickliter comparisons. Guy never had a winning record at Iowa.
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Elite 8 is nice but three years removed...It loses its luster.
 


Isn't it lighting that thinks it makes him more competitive to cry on message boards about having higher standards of a team he doesn't even play for?
 




1977Hawkeye said:
I don't disagree, but you said he did nothing with that roster: "Davis took the most talented roster Iowa has ever had and did NOTHING with it."

Just going by what you said.
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Exactly . An Elite 8 with that roster is the equivalent of nothing in my opinion.
 


WindsorHawk said:
I think it's a dumb move even for a hall of fame coach. There will be loss of continuity. How long will they stay?
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This. Remember folks, Iowa is NOT a destination job. It's not an elite/blue blood program. Heck, it's not even in the top of of the most desireable jobs in the B1G! Don't believe me? Here's the perception from the Chicago Tribune (LINK) and from our very own Miller & Daece. (LINK) In both, Iowa isn't even in the top half.

Why? Because we've had 4 coaches in the last 20 years. Three of them were run out (2 deservedly) and 1 is getting Iowa back on it's feet. It takes time to rebuild from where we were 8 years ago, and when you're not considered elite, or even close, it takes longer and it takes continuity.

There's work to do. Iowa is not where we want them to be, but Fran has the Hawks moving in the right direction.

Just my $.02 .. .. GO HAWKS!!!

Edit: Corrected a couple of typos .. ..
 
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1977Hawkeye said:
I don't disagree, but you said he did nothing with that roster: "Davis took the most talented roster Iowa has ever had and did NOTHING with it."

Just going by what you said.
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I was referring to the Elite 8 as a typical end of season result without the context of the roster Davis had. Calipari's Final Four loss on his undefeated team is a huge disappointment to every Kentucky fan. Context counts
 


lightning1 said:
Nope. I think they are both garbage. I'm not trying to elevate Lickliter. I'd have thought that much was obvious. Lickliter took the garbage that SA left and had 13 wins, 15 wins and 10 wins. Davis took the LOADED roster that Raveling left and went 30, 24, 23 and 12 wins. The rest of Davis's tenure was mediocre at best, with 1 Sweet 16 in 9 years. That's why my opinion of Davis is what it is.
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You roast Davis for taking Ravelings loaded roster from 30 to 24 to 23 and to 12 wins and would have fired him.

But Fran took a dumpster fire of Lick from 10 to 11 to 18 to 25 to 20 and 3 straight NCAA appearances 4 straight 1st team All B1G players and has a roster full of talent that a lot of people think will challenge for B1G titles over the next three seasons and that's not enough to get you back into Iowa basketball.

You are definitely in the minority in your views and that's a YOU thing - not an Iowa basketball thing.
 


lightning1 said:
You left off Minnesota, even though they later had that title removed. If my expectations are so out of line with the avg fan, why aren't season ticket sales sold out every year? I think my expectations are closer to realistic than yours are. Iowa fans are getting fed up and it's been obvious for a long, long time. When CHA is sold out every year, maybe your argument will have merit. The football stadium sells 70k every game. The basketball team can't manage 15k? I recall the days when season tickets were sell outs every year. Those days are long gone. Prices keep climbing and no conference titles have been delivered. The fans have higher expectations and they are expressing those expectations with their wallets.
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Yes. Minnesota cheated to get a title. You can count that. I don't. I don't want rules sacrificed for winning in Iowa City.

I get your frustration. You want the majority of the other fans to feel as you do. It's human nature.

That's why I wrote in my last post that someone could say that the Iowa fans are settling for mediocrity by supporting a team that falls below your standards and expectations. That charge is irrelevant. It's their money. If they want to go to games, it's their right. They're happy to support the program just like it's your right not to.

Attendance around here isn't like the 80s and much of the 90s. But it's all relative. Basketball attendance is down nationally overall.

From 2014-16, the Hawkeyes ranked among the Top 20 schools nationally in attendance all three seasons. This year's ranking has yet to be released but Iowa averaged 12,547, which likely will be among the Top 20-30 in the country.

Here's another comparison for you...in '16, Iowa State averaged 14,270 for home games. Iowa averaged 13,835. The Cyclones were 16th nationally with Hilton Magic. Iowa was 19th.

Not many schools in the country or in the Big Ten sell out basketball games anymore. So, if the fans are talking with their wallets here at Iowa, as you say, they're doing so in a way that shows they're still engaged with the program as it relates to the national landscape.

Again, you're free to expect what you feel is right. You can not go to the games. But you're in the minority. The numbers say so.

Can that change? Sure. I've said that in several posts already. It's fluid. But right now, fans are supporting the program.
 


InGoodCo said:
You roast Davis for taking Ravelings loaded roster from 30 to 24 to 23 and to 12 wins and would have fired him.

But Fran took a dumpster fire of Lick from 10 to 11 to 18 to 25 to 20 and 3 straight NCAA appearances 4 straight 1st team All B1G players and has a roster full of talent that a lot of people think will challenge for B1G titles over the next three seasons and that's not enough to get you back into Iowa basketball.

You are definitely in the minority in your views and that's a YOU thing - not an Iowa basketball thing.
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I think Fran has reached his peak here but I already said I will give him til 2019-20 season to deliver a BIG title and a Sweet 16 team.
 


That 1989-1990 team was 8-2 thru 10 games and had a win over a Top 10 North Carolina team. Then the crap hit the fan with injuries and ineligibilities....not to mention Hunter F'ing Rawlings declaring Thompson ineligible right before the NCAA's the year before. I contend with Thompson, we beat NC State and do some real damage in the Tourney.

In all honesty, while Davis certainly had his faults, he was also practically cursed from a personnel standpoint. It's almost like the basketball gods told him that it had to even out based on what he walked into personnel-wise. Between Ray Thompson, Rodell Davis, Matt Bullard, Jess Settles, and Chris Street....he got pretty royally screwed. How much different does the NCAA tourney in the 1988-1989 season look with Thompson in the lineup? How much different does 1989-1990 look with Thompson? How much different does 1993 look with Chris Street? How much different does 1994-1999 look with a healthy Settles?

And this doesn't even take into account the screw jobs we got in seeding the NCAAs. Playing Duke at the absolute height of their dynasty in 1991 and 1992 as 8/9 seeds, when we should have been higher. Getting an 8 seed as the #2 team in the B1G in 1997 and having to play Kentucky in the 2nd round (who also went on to the title).

Sure, towards the end of his tenure, Davis couldn't close the deal on some pretty big name recruits in Iowa....but he also was dealt a pretty bad hand for much of his tenure as well.....
 


lightning1 said:
I think Fran has reached his peak here but I already said I will give him til 2019-20 season to deliver a BIG title and a Sweet 16 team.
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"Reached his peak" is one of the dumbest things I read on here. The last 3 years before this one, they did what they did while losing almost every single close game they played in. This year showed it was the players that lost the close games, not the coach. Even tho anyone watching games those 3 years could tell plain as day it was the players. So how can a team that loses almost every single close game be the "peak"? Those 3 teams were a lot closet to doing way better than they were to doing a little worse.
 


lightning1 said:
I think Fran has reached his peak here but I already said I will give him til 2019-20 season to deliver a BIG title and a Sweet 16 team.
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How could one conceive that Fran has reached his peak when he took the program to 3 straight NCAA appearances with classes that he recruited to Iowa coming off the worst 3 year stretch in program history? Pickings were slim when he brought those guys in. I get that you're unhappy with the results and I too always want better, but that's a complete failed logic. The classes he has coming in now are so much better than when he started, it's laughable and something very tangible and clear to see.

Now if he can't parlay this into something that sets the bar higher, than I would hear the "Fran's peaked" argument.
 


SpiderRico said:
That 1989-1990 team was 8-2 thru 10 games and had a win over a Top 10 North Carolina team. Then the crap hit the fan with injuries and ineligibilities....not to mention Hunter F'ing Rawlings declaring Thompson ineligible right before the NCAA's the year before. I contend with Thompson, we beat NC State and do some real damage in the Tourney.

In all honesty, while Davis certainly had his faults, he was also practically cursed from a personnel standpoint. It's almost like the basketball gods told him that it had to even out based on what he walked into personnel-wise. Between Ray Thompson, Rodell Davis, Matt Bullard, Jess Settles, and Chris Street....he got pretty royally screwed. How much different does the NCAA tourney in the 1988-1989 season look with Thompson in the lineup? How much different does 1989-1990 look with Thompson? How much different does 1993 look with Chris Street? How much different does 1994-1999 look with a healthy Settles?

And this doesn't even take into account the screw jobs we got in seeding the NCAAs. Playing Duke at the absolute height of their dynasty in 1991 and 1992 as 8/9 seeds, when we should have been higher. Getting an 8 seed as the #2 team in the B1G in 1997 and having to play Kentucky in the 2nd round (who also went on to the title).

Sure, towards the end of his tenure, Davis couldn't close the deal on some pretty big name recruits in Iowa....but he also was dealt a pretty bad hand for much of his tenure as well.....
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Yeah, and those first two losses were both on the road: @UNLV, who won it all that year, and @UNI, who went to the dance and beat Missouri in the 1st round. That wasn't a bad UNI squad.

I still feel that year would've been a little down regardless, but the wheels really came off once half the team disappeared. Lightning talks about context.. But that knife cuts both ways.

As you said, Davis wasn't without flaws, but he had some really bad luck at times and still had us in the upper division most years and in the dance. He also took the freaking DRAKE job and set that up for Keno to win 30 games there when he took over... We're still struggling to get back to where the program was on his watch.. Fran may just now be getting us back there.

Mr. Davis was a good coach. I'm amazed that some people still can't see that. Best we've ever had? No. But he ran a good program.
 


lightning1 said:
Exactly . An Elite 8 with that roster is the equivalent of nothing in my opinion.
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Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. It's not that easy to simply make the Final Four, or win it all. Just ask Duke & VIllanova this year, who didn't even get out of the first weekend, how easy it is to just waltz through the tournament. Believe it or not, there are other good teams in the NCAA Tournament.

30-5. Not good enough?
 
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InGoodCo said:
How could one conceive that Fran has reached his peak when he took the program to 3 straight NCAA appearances with classes that he recruited to Iowa coming off the worst 3 year stretch in program history? Pickings were slim when he brought those guys in. I get that you're unhappy with the results and I too always want better, but that's a complete failed logic. The classes he has coming in now are so much better than when he started, it's laughable and something very tangible and clear to see.

Now if he can't parlay this into something that sets the bar higher, than I would hear the "Fran's peaked" argument.
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Every single logical thought points towards Fran having better years in the future. I don't get how anyone sees otherwise.
 






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