We need a scheme that works with the type of WRs Iowa typically gets. If we happen to get a bunch of NFL WRs it will work with any scheme.
Greg Davis passing scheme
- Thread starter hwk23
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We need a scheme that works with the type of WRs Iowa typically gets. If we happen to get a bunch of NFL WRs it will work with any scheme.
hawkdrummer1
Well-Known Member
This isn't meant to be a jab, but if you haven't figured out by now that KFz is a control freak who fears risk... you haven't been paying attention.
hawkdrummer1
Well-Known Member
No, but he is not "alone" in his responsibility or credit, many contribute...but he is ultimately the one responsible for the result. He has final say over pretty much everything...including his assistants. The term "Head Coach" is pretty clear.
I've pretty much never understood the whole passing game Davis has had. To have so many routes and run short of the marker on 3rd down is just inexcusable. I used to think it was a Jake Rudock thing. Now it's clear to see that's not the case. But for crying out loud the least you can do is try to get 1st downs right? Running plays that aren't even designed to work is the coaches not trying if you ask me. Be it those types of plays or even some of the running plays they'll call in certain situations. It seems like half the plays or more are just not designed to be more than a 2 yard game be it passing or running...
KF might be control freak but there is a big difference between GD and KOK in the passing game. I think the passing scheme is generally outside of KFs expertise and he lets the OC control this. KF probably decides the play mix which I happen to agree with for the most part. I think we should be 60-65% run but we absolutely need to be more effective passing.
Not alone, no but they have the control to drive the bus....Any Head Coach has the ability to open things up and give his program (coordinators) the ability to use different schemes/ideas to possibly help it prosper or he can also put a choke hold on it and keep things close to the vest that allows zero margin for error. We don't have a very good scheme or flexibility in our play calling. How many times do you see CJ in a shotgun with zero running backs flanked to his side? Rarely. So....it's a pass. How about putting Wadley and Daniels next to him and then you have options?
KF has to be willing to evolve. It is very obvious this program is predictable. That's fine when your talent alone can overtake a team less talented. When you start playing others that are equal or more talented, you have to bring something new to the table.
deanvogs
Well-Known Member
It is clear. Why do so many pretend then that he had nothing to do with the winning years?
hawkdrummer1
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't know who "they" are. Blame and credit go side by side in my world. Both are real.
SteveGarvey1
Well-Known Member
Left that too unclear. The buck stops with Kirk.
DBAHawkFan
Well-Known Member
Pretty much 90% of our throws are within 10 yards, and outside the hash marks. We dont' throw deep (and some of that is on WR and OL), and we definitely do not throw across the middle of the field.
I don't understand this scheme. With 4/5* athletes and super star QB, sure it probably works....though it drove people in TX crazy too.
It's pretty easy to scheme against us as others have pointed out. You load the box and really crash down on the stretch plays. You can play more man coverage with your CB because there's little fear of getting beat deep. And you blitz the crap out of us which falls under the no fear of big play.
KOK drove us nuts, but it seemed to fall more in line with the tendency to run when we need to pass and vice versa. Which seems to go back to KF, as GD does this as well. Abandon what's working to try to get the other aspect of offense going. All about balance for some reason
I don't understand this scheme. With 4/5* athletes and super star QB, sure it probably works....though it drove people in TX crazy too.
It's pretty easy to scheme against us as others have pointed out. You load the box and really crash down on the stretch plays. You can play more man coverage with your CB because there's little fear of getting beat deep. And you blitz the crap out of us which falls under the no fear of big play.
KOK drove us nuts, but it seemed to fall more in line with the tendency to run when we need to pass and vice versa. Which seems to go back to KF, as GD does this as well. Abandon what's working to try to get the other aspect of offense going. All about balance for some reason
The problem with Davis' scheme is that it is read and react. If your qb and wr read different things, you are not going to have a productive passing game.
It's also why it often looks like there are no deep options on the routes, and there are very few crossing routes - the read makes Iowa players run the short out route because The defense lines up inside shoulder and forces receivers to the outside and stands their ground at the first down marker. The open read is underneath and outside, where, if the wr can make a guy miss a tackle, there is the opportunity for a big play. Iowa doesn't have receivers capable of making guys miss, so they don't get big plays.
Defenses know the reads the wrs and qb have to make, and can dictate the routes run because of it. Iowa never checks into a hot route, never checks into a screen or slant when the blitz is on, and he tight ends don't et off blocks quick enough for PA pass to be successful.
With the right experienced players, this scheme can work -- they have to be tall, atheletic, and tough enough to win contested balls when they aren't completely wide open, and trong enough to shake off the arms of overing corners on the first hit. Iowa doesn't have that personnel with Vandy out.
It's also why it often looks like there are no deep options on the routes, and there are very few crossing routes - the read makes Iowa players run the short out route because The defense lines up inside shoulder and forces receivers to the outside and stands their ground at the first down marker. The open read is underneath and outside, where, if the wr can make a guy miss a tackle, there is the opportunity for a big play. Iowa doesn't have receivers capable of making guys miss, so they don't get big plays.
Defenses know the reads the wrs and qb have to make, and can dictate the routes run because of it. Iowa never checks into a hot route, never checks into a screen or slant when the blitz is on, and he tight ends don't et off blocks quick enough for PA pass to be successful.
With the right experienced players, this scheme can work -- they have to be tall, atheletic, and tough enough to win contested balls when they aren't completely wide open, and trong enough to shake off the arms of overing corners on the first hit. Iowa doesn't have that personnel with Vandy out.
HomerChampless
Well-Known Member
If it's a personnel problem, cincyhawk, then it's also a recruiting problem because Iowa can't get the athletic receiver to come to Iowa to run Davis' scheme. If the scheme accommodates the nonathletic receiver, the athletic receiver won't come to Iowa, either..
I wonder how the quality of receiver would change if Iowa didn't demand receivers block with the affinity of linemen?
I wonder how the quality of receiver would change if Iowa didn't demand receivers block with the affinity of linemen?
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SpiderRico
Well-Known Member
There are 3 main issues at play here:
1. GD tries to marry a short, horizontal passing game with zone, power running game. Recipe for disaster as the box is always loaded. The best passing scheme to marry to a power running game is a play action game that utilizes tight end seam routes, mid tier crossing routes and deep post routes. All 3 take advantage of linebackers and safeties cheating up to stop the run.
2. Read & React/Sight Adjustment Routes vs. Preplanned Routes. GD does the former and it killed JVB and the receivers as they were NEVER on the same page. And it's coming back to bite us this year because we don't have the receivers with enough skill or experience to know how to alter their routes accordingly. Couple that with an Oline that has been shuffled nearly every game because of injuries and it's a recipe for disaster. In fact, I think read & react passing game has no place in college football for the most part as you typically can't have the appropriate practice time to develop chemistry on those kinds of routes between QB and WR like you can in the NFL where virtually all routes are read & react or combo routes. Plus it requires way too much thinking instead of playing. The reason we keep our defense as simple and as "base" as possible is it's supposed to allow the defensive players to play fast and not think. We do the exact opposite for our offense and it's killing us.
3. Which leads to the last point which is a flat out deficit of skilled receivers during GDs tenure. Under KOK we had Scott Chander, Brandon Myers, Dallas Clark, Tony Jackson and Tony Moeaki as TEs along with Mo Brown, Clinton Solomon, Ed Hinkel, Andy Brodell, DJK, and Marvin McNutt as WRs. There was a year early in GDs tenure where the staff admitted to robbing Oline schollies to try and get more skilled, fast WRs. In that class, none of those receivers remain and the result is that we have to play walkons on the Oline. That is absolutely terrible scholarship management and was instigated by GD.
This marriage ain't working and should be ended at the conclusion of this year.
1. GD tries to marry a short, horizontal passing game with zone, power running game. Recipe for disaster as the box is always loaded. The best passing scheme to marry to a power running game is a play action game that utilizes tight end seam routes, mid tier crossing routes and deep post routes. All 3 take advantage of linebackers and safeties cheating up to stop the run.
2. Read & React/Sight Adjustment Routes vs. Preplanned Routes. GD does the former and it killed JVB and the receivers as they were NEVER on the same page. And it's coming back to bite us this year because we don't have the receivers with enough skill or experience to know how to alter their routes accordingly. Couple that with an Oline that has been shuffled nearly every game because of injuries and it's a recipe for disaster. In fact, I think read & react passing game has no place in college football for the most part as you typically can't have the appropriate practice time to develop chemistry on those kinds of routes between QB and WR like you can in the NFL where virtually all routes are read & react or combo routes. Plus it requires way too much thinking instead of playing. The reason we keep our defense as simple and as "base" as possible is it's supposed to allow the defensive players to play fast and not think. We do the exact opposite for our offense and it's killing us.
3. Which leads to the last point which is a flat out deficit of skilled receivers during GDs tenure. Under KOK we had Scott Chander, Brandon Myers, Dallas Clark, Tony Jackson and Tony Moeaki as TEs along with Mo Brown, Clinton Solomon, Ed Hinkel, Andy Brodell, DJK, and Marvin McNutt as WRs. There was a year early in GDs tenure where the staff admitted to robbing Oline schollies to try and get more skilled, fast WRs. In that class, none of those receivers remain and the result is that we have to play walkons on the Oline. That is absolutely terrible scholarship management and was instigated by GD.
This marriage ain't working and should be ended at the conclusion of this year.
HomerChampless
Well-Known Member
There is very little I agree with this post. GD doesn't try to marry a short, horizontal passing game, it's the only type of passing game conducive to Iowa's nonathletic receivers. Which was kinda the reason why Davis, in your words, robbed offensive linemen schollies for receiver schollies. TO GET MORE ATHLETIC RECEIVERS. BTW, you think Iowa robbed o-lineman schollies for receiver schollies? Shows your bias. Either it's a bias for run offense or no bias for the offense.
Unfortunately, the added receiver schollies didn't pan out. (1)Maybe it was because of the demand for receivers with high quality blocking skills at Iowa. (2)Maybe it was because of the demand for the running game (KF's desire) to be front and center at Iowa. Who knows? BTW, neither of those two causes a successful down the field passing attack.
Why do you want to give up on Iowa receiving? Isn't not going downfield one of the complaints you have about the Davis passing offense? How is more passes to the tight end gonna stretch the field?
Finally, Iowa excels in recruiting positions that don't need extreme athleticism. One can guess the three positions that demand athleticism, that Iowa usually has none of: QB, receiver, and cornerback. You want Iowa to successfully recruit top notch QBs, receivers and cornerbacks? Well, do you?? There is a need to treat those special athletes special for them to come and stay. There is a need for those special athletes to show case their athletic abilities. Evidently, Iowa refuses to treat those athletes special or show case their athletic abilities...Evidently, Iowa has to retrain other athletes to become their go to receivers.
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Joshbrown
Well-Known Member
Whether it be recruiting or offense - KF makes things harder than they have to be. He could run up the score on weaker teams, thus negating any worries about bad officiating. But nope, gotta keep it close and play a field position game. KF's strategy is to try and run out the clock starting at the 14:00 minute mark of the 1st quarter.
Garandx
Well-Known Member
So much what I was riting before to respond to the personnel uestion someone eplied to me with.
I think you could run this offense with power in college if you did it no huddle check with me style and mixed one or two TE crossing routes / slot skinny posts into it. My biggest gripe is that it is designed to be 65% completion ratio, shield the defender from the ball and get YAC, but it's also high risk for turnovers due to being designed to be used against tight coverage in the flats.
If ran correctly it is a high risk / high reward system. You get nice highlights out of it, but you are going to throw at least three pick sixes in a season whe some db reads the route and umps it. That doesn't really match up with Iowa's overall philosophy regarding turnovers, and Iowa's WR corps is just not physical enough to pull it off (you need bigger wrs). You don't need separation if you throw it only where your guy can get it, but you need size and power to break the immediate tackle and gain YAC.
KOK required backs to have extraordinary vision and ake too much punishment ver a season, and couldn't ake what the defense as giving him. GD requires too much cognitive and physical ability from his wrs and only takes what the D gives him on offense. Both couldn't coach a checkdown to a pass play to save their lives, and neither guy could recruit their way out of a wet paper bag .
