Fry v KF

[HawkGold]

Been thinking about Fry lately. The man was a giant to me. During that time period when he was hired, Iowa's program was bad (prior). Generally speaking things were rather negative in general. Vietnam was lost. Not long after Fry's arrival the farm economy was in a depression that lasted along time.

Fry brought an optimism with him that was infectious. He was terrific for the state of Iowa. So I begin with that.

Fry made us feel proud about being from Iowa. KF makes excuses about Iowa and I think that is his biggest mistake.
Fry understood not just beating ISU, but crushing them if possible.
Fans entered most every game thinking the Hawks could and would win regardless of the opponent (OK, things dwindled at times)
I do remember the feeling of being betrayed when he applied for USC.
Ironically KF has been rumored but never really has seriously applied.

That said, I do believe there are some myths about Fry.
He didn't like passing down the middle. KF actually does it. Fry said that 3 things can happen if a pass is down the middle and 2 were bad. Fry also didn't use quick passes behind the line like KF. Ricki Stanzi as Pic Rick would have never happened. Then again maybe the Orange Bowl wouldn't have either.

I also wonder what might have happened if Fry didn't oft go to Prevent Defense with leads. Wonder how many games that prevented the Hawks from winning. That just drove me mad. KF doesn't blitz but doesn't really go to a prevent.

Fry also had his own qb controversy. Long was likely the safe bet. Vlasic probably had more upside. Both were NFL material.

I've never seen a coach give up a game over shoes like HF did. Can't imagine KF doing that. Fry was making a point about knee injuries.

KF's conservative approach may actually be more Fry like only different.

Truth is, Iowa football has been pretty successful. Looking back if we knew what KF's record would be, most would be happy. Minor details such as how KF portrays himself makes a big difference. Fry led us to believe we could beat OSU and when the game was over, most believed the team did it's best (outside of Prevent and not passing down the middle). KF in a position to win at OSU played not to win.

The two may be closer than we think, only packaged differently..

 

[imported_ankle23]

the thing that people oft forget about fry v. isu........criner put them in the hole deep with the ncaa violations.

this was also the era of 95 scholarships instead of 85. can you imagine how that hurt isu - with iowa kids especially? 95 to 85 happened in 1992.

in walden's first year at iowa state, when teams not on sanctions started the year off with 95 scholarship players, walden started out with 57. Walden's first four years at iowa state - he was allowed to have the following numbers of players on his team (scholarship players): 57,61,63 and 67. this, of course, includes all his players - regardless if they were injured or true freshmen.

think this one over the next time you think about fry v. iowa state and then ferentz v. iowa state. the landscape was entirely different.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

the thing that people oft forget about fry v. isu........criner put them in the hole deep with the ncaa violations.

this was also the era of 95 scholarships instead of 85. can you imagine how that hurt isu - with iowa kids especially? 95 to 85 happened in 1992.

in walden's first year at iowa state, when teams not on sanctions started the year off with 95 scholarship players, walden started out with 57. Walden's first four years at iowa state - he was allowed to have the following numbers of players on his team (scholarship players): 57,61,63 and 67. this, of course, includes all his players - regardless if they were injured or true freshmen.

think this one over the next time you think about fry v. iowa state and then ferentz v. iowa state. the landscape was entirely different.

True, but it's also true ISU was coming off a number of years of winning (4 bowls in 8 years at a time when there were only 12 bowl games), IOWA was coming off 18 years of losing. That's pretty big stuff to overcome. When Kirk took over Iowa was coming off of 15 out of 18 years of winning, it was much different. (the data is too robust to list here)

As for the 98/85 scholarship thing, you can look at that a variety of ways... could be good or bad for either program.
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HawkGold, but you make some interesting comments...but since you used the term "myths"...I'll call you on one. You're actually paraphrasing a quote oft credited to Woody Hayes, (some claim it was first said by Robert Neyland or Darrel Royal), that 3 things can happen when you pass and 2 of them are bad.

I don't think Hayden ever said that.

Hayden was never a basketball on grass guy...but nobody claims he was. (nor was anybody else in 1979, it was 3 yards and a cloud of dust). But he did bring a much more wide open offense, including a willingness to pass... than IOWA fans had ever seen. Within the context of his era and situation...it was aggressive passing. Many love to say he wasn't really that wide open using a 2015 point of reference. Well...he wasn't using a 2015 point of reference, but it was 1979 when he took the job. History has to be viewed within the context of its time.

 

[GrandpaHawk]

Some of the things I remember about Coach Fry was he didn't believe in moral victories,he changed the culture for our fan base,losing was not going to be tolerated.Every year it was either Ohio St or Michigan at the top and when we beat them they wouldn't acknowledge we were the better team until we started getting better each year.The biggest difference between the two coaches is Fry would always have a trick play or two that he would pull off with success,Coach Ferentz doesn't like taking to many risk.Fry would let everyone know how he felt about a loss and Ferentz would let his team know behind closed doors on how he felt and not throwing anyone under the bus,which isn't bad.Both very loyal to their coaches and players.Two great coaches.

 

[HawkGold]

True, but it's also true ISU was coming of a number of years of winning (4 bowls in 8 years at a time when there were only 12 bowl games), IOWA was coming off 18 years of losing. That's pretty big stuff to overcome. When Kirk took over Iowa was coming off of 15 out of 18 years of winning, it was much different. (the data is too robust to list here)

As for the 98/85 scholarship thing, you can look at that a variety of ways... could be good or bad for either program.
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HawkGold, but you make some interesting comments...but since you used the term "myths"...I'll call you on one. You're actually paraphrasing a quote oft credited to Woody Hayes, (some claim it was first said by Robert Neyland or Darrel Royal), that 3 things can happen when you pass and 2 of them are bad.

I don't think Hayden ever said that.

Hayden was never a basketball on grass guy...but nobody claims he was. (nor was anybody else in 1979, it was 3 yards and a cloud of dust). But he did bring a much more wide open offense, including a willingness to pass... than IOWA fans had ever seen. Within the context of his era and situation...it was aggressive passing. Many love to say he wasn't really that wide open using a 2015 point of reference. Well...he wasn't using a 2015 point of reference, but it was 1979 when he took the job. History has to be viewed within the context of its time.

No, actually he did say that. He hated passing down the middle and it irked the tar out of me. I remember it quite well. Compared to the past, yes he did bring in a lot more of passing, but not as much as advertised. Also go back and look at Chuck Long videos. Rarely down the middle. It was always down the sidelines. Yes he probably got that from someone else but he did use it in context of down the middle passing.

Lee Corso was pretty wide open. Fry's first game where Iowa raced out to a big lead and lost was about the ground game and the fear of passing. Just saying the Coach was more conservative than people remembered.

 

[SteveGarvey1]

Hayden often called draw plays on 3rd down which irked me and even punted on 3rd down on occasions.

Both Kirk and Hayden do/did things that lead/led to Sunday morning quarterbacking by fans and that could even cause you to pull your hair out.

Both could be conservative but Kirk is more vanilla than Hayden was.

Love what both have done for Iowa Hawkeye football though.

 

[GrandpaHawk]

Hayden often called draw plays on 3rd down which irked me and even punted on 3rd down on occasions.

Both Kirk and Hayden do/did things that lead/led to Sunday morning quarterbacking by fans and that could even cause you to pull your hair out.

Both could be conservative but Kirk is more vanilla than Hayden was.

Love what both have done for Iowa Hawkeye football though.

Yes I remember when it was 3rd down and 15+ and he would call a draw and lord and behold sometimes it worked.He usually punted on 3rd down if we were deep inside our 20

 

[trj]

the thing that people oft forget about fry v. isu........criner put them in the hole deep with the ncaa violations.

this was also the era of 95 scholarships instead of 85. can you imagine how that hurt isu - with iowa kids especially? 95 to 85 happened in 1992.

in walden's first year at iowa state, when teams not on sanctions started the year off with 95 scholarship players, walden started out with 57. Walden's first four years at iowa state - he was allowed to have the following numbers of players on his team (scholarship players): 57,61,63 and 67. this, of course, includes all his players - regardless if they were injured or true freshmen.

think this one over the next time you think about fry v. iowa state and then ferentz v. iowa state. the landscape was entirely different.

KF's 8-9 record against ISU will never get a pass by me despite all the great things he has done for the Iowa program. When it comes to the rivalry with ISU he has simply dropped the ball. I can look the other way with FM's 1-6 record against ISU, but not football. ISU football is garbage, other than the 2000 and the 2005 season it has always been garbage.

 

[GrandpaHawk]

Couldn't agree more we need to start dominating ISU,maybe it's just me but it seems we always hold back our play calling early in the season or we don't change game plans when something isn't working.Fry was good at changing on the fly,like he always said " Scratch Where It Itches ".He was good at making changes at halftime.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

No, actually he did say that. He hated passing down the middle and it irked the tar out of me. I remember it quite well. Compared to the past, yes he did bring in a lot more of passing, but not as much as advertised. Also go back and look at Chuck Long videos. Rarely down the middle. It was always down the sidelines. Yes he probably got that from someone else but he did use it in context of down the middle passing.

Lee Corso was pretty wide open. Fry's first game where Iowa raced out to a big lead and lost was about the ground game and the fear of passing. Just saying the Coach was more conservative than people remembered.

You had me at "he passed toward the sidelines"... solid observation. Hayden liked the "out". No better example than Long.

You lost me at "he was more conservative that people remembered"...though i understand your point. I maintain it's all relative. In 2015 terms...yes. But he made his mark and changed the culture, not only at IOWA but for the entire Big Ten by taking chances and doing the unexpected. If you're under 45 you get a free pass. I lived it.

Both are great coaches and I'm grateful they are/were at Iowa. I hate to pick one over the other...but if push comes to shove, the difference for me will always be the record against ISU. No excuse for all the times KFz lost to that pathetic pile of dung. That's also why I'd take Hayden head-to-head v Kirk with the same players on each sideline. He'd win 7 out of 10.

 

[peerok]

I think the personal both coaches had at any given time had a lot to do with how conservative they were. When Fry had guys like Long, Hartlieb and Rodgers at QB, the offense was a lot more wide open. When he had guys like Burmeister and Scherman at QB, the playcalling got a lot more basic and predictable. Likewise, when Ferentz had Banks and Tate the offense was more wide open than it was with JC and Vandenberg.

I also wonder how much more criticism Fry would have received from the fans had message boards been in existence back then.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

I think the personal both coaches had at any given time had a lot to do with how conservative they were. When Fry had guys like Long, Hartlieb and Rodgers at QB, the offense was a lot more wide open. When he had guys like Burmeister and Scherman at QB, the playcalling got a lot more basic and predictable. Likewise, when Ferentz had Banks and Tate the offense was more wide open than it was with JC and Vandenberg.

I also wonder how much more criticism Fry would have received from the fans had message boards been in existence back then.

Fry got his share of criticism, just at Mr. Davis did...and George Raveling...all before message boards.

Vandenberg?! I realize we live in a short attention span and limited scope of history society...but surely you know better. Vandy was a gunslinger coming out of high school. He had incredible numbers in 2011..25 TDs to 7 INTs. Then the Greg Davis transition arrived and killed his game. A guy doesn't go from 25-7 to 7-8 by happenstance. That was all on the offensive scheme.

 

[teachercoach]

"Fry brought an optimism with him that was infectious. He was terrific for the state of Iowa.
Fry made us feel proud about being from Iowa. "

Shortened your point to these.


Put the name 'FRY FIELD' on the back of the end zones and honor Coach at halftime of 1st game, while we still can!
Have a swarm w/ as many former players as possible - UI athletics misses these chances when it would be a ticket in high demand.

 

[HawkGold]

I think the personal both coaches had at any given time had a lot to do with how conservative they were. When Fry had guys like Long, Hartlieb and Rodgers at QB, the offense was a lot more wide open. When he had guys like Burmeister and Scherman at QB, the playcalling got a lot more basic and predictable. Likewise, when Ferentz had Banks and Tate the offense was more wide open than it was with JC and Vandenberg.

I also wonder how much more criticism Fry would have received from the fans had message boards been in existence back then.

My intention in this isn't to dump on KF. KF did his darndest to make Banks a drop back passer. When I was younger and took more time, I did some analysis. Banks jr year, the Hawks scored at an exceptionally high rate (almost 2/3 of possessions) (often FGs though), when Banks was QB but he got something like 1/3 of the snaps. I know the "He didn't know the playbook" argument, but it was interesting. Funny though no one mentions Vlasic much though he had a measurable, but injury prone NFL career.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

My intention in this isn't to dump on KF. KF did his darndest to make Banks a drop back passer. When I was younger and took more time, I did some analysis. Banks jr year, the Hawks scored at an exceptionally high rate (almost 2/3 of possessions) (often FGs though), when Banks was QB but he got something like 1/3 of the snaps. I know the "He didn't know the playbook" argument, but it was interesting. Funny though no one mentions Vlasic much though he had a measurable, but injury prone NFL career.

You get the feeling Vlasic might have transferred in today's landscape. He could have started a lot of places...what an arm.
Banks was something special, a real game-changing athlete especially with the O-line.

 

[HawkGold]

the thing that people oft forget about fry v. isu........criner put them in the hole deep with the ncaa violations.

this was also the era of 95 scholarships instead of 85. can you imagine how that hurt isu - with iowa kids especially? 95 to 85 happened in 1992.

in walden's first year at iowa state, when teams not on sanctions started the year off with 95 scholarship players, walden started out with 57. Walden's first four years at iowa state - he was allowed to have the following numbers of players on his team (scholarship players): 57,61,63 and 67. this, of course, includes all his players - regardless if they were injured or true freshmen.

think this one over the next time you think about fry v. iowa state and then ferentz v. iowa state. the landscape was entirely different.

It's still a matter of approach. Fry went against 8 and 3 Earl at first and Duncan had some "decent" teams. Much better than what KF has gone against in recent history. KF comes off as indifferent against the dreaded rival. Ole 8-3 had some pretty decent teams. If KF showed a bit more passion, especially toward ISU and quit knocking recruiting to Iowa AND said Iowa was a great place to coach (actually said it), a lot of detractors would vanish.

 

[HawkGold]

No takers on Fry's Prevent defense?

 

[Thawki]

True, but it's also true ISU was coming off a number of years of winning (4 bowls in 8 years at a time when there were only 12 bowl games), IOWA was coming off 18 years of losing. That's pretty big stuff to overcome. When Kirk took over Iowa was coming off of 15 out of 18 years of winning, it was much different. (the data is too robust to list here)

As for the 98/85 scholarship thing, you can look at that a variety of ways... could be good or bad for either program.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
HawkGold, but you make some interesting comments...but since you used the term "myths"...I'll call you on one. You're actually paraphrasing a quote oft credited to Woody Hayes, (some claim it was first said by Robert Neyland or Darrel Royal), that 3 things can happen when you pass and 2 of them are bad.

I don't think Hayden ever said that.

Hayden was never a basketball on grass guy...but nobody claims he was. (nor was anybody else in 1979, it was 3 yards and a cloud of dust). But he did bring a much more wide open offense, including a willingness to pass... than IOWA fans had ever seen. Within the context of his era and situation...it was aggressive passing. Many love to say he wasn't really that wide open using a 2015 point of reference. Well...he wasn't using a 2015 point of reference, but it was 1979 when he took the job. History has to be viewed within the context of its time.

I am sorry but it is factually incorrect that there were only 12 bowl games back then. Heck, I can name the following off the top of my head: Rose, Sugar, Cotton, Orange, Astro-Blue Bonnet, Gator, Peach, Freedom, Sun, Independence. And I can guarantee you I didn't just name ten of only twelve bowl games at the time.

As I ticked these off I decided to look it up. While I am correct that it is factually incorrect to say there were only 12, College Football Reference.com lists only 15 bowl games in 1978. That number surprises me a little. I thought it would have been more around 20 to 25.

There is probably no one that knows more about Iowa football than me from Hayden Fry forward in terms of remembering the history of that time. Starting QBs while I was attending Iowa were Long, Long, Long and Vlasic. I do not recall Fry ever making the comment about bad things happening when the ball is thrown over the middle. And he threw over the middle quite a bit to TEs like Hayes, Flagg, Cook, just to name a few.

 

[HawkGold]

I am sorry but it is factually incorrect that there were only 12 bowl games back then. Heck, I can name the following off the top of my head: Rose, Sugar, Cotton, Orange, Astro-Blue Bonnet, Gator, Peach, Freedom, Sun, Independence. And I can guarantee you I didn't just name ten of only twelve bowl games at the time.

As I ticked these off I decided to look it up. While I am correct that it is factually incorrect to say there were only 12, College Football Reference.com lists only 15 bowl games in 1978. That number surprises me a little. I thought it would have been more around 20 to 25.

There is probably no one that knows more about Iowa football than me from Hayden Fry forward in terms of remembering the history of that time. Starting QBs while I was attending Iowa were Long, Long, Long and Vlasic. I do not recall Fry ever making the comment about bad things happening when the ball is thrown over the middle. And he threw over the middle quite a bit to TEs like Hayes, Flagg, Cook, just to name a few.

I wouldn't say that about your knowledge of Iowa football in comparison to others. Your not the only one who ate up everything and Fry did say it. Yes, I thought about making an exception for TE's but most passes to the TE's were not beyond the 1st Down Marker so I didn't mention it.

 

[desihawk]

This post is not about knocking Fry because I do believe that he brought the all-important winning attitude to Iowa football. That said, I also watched a serious decline in Iowa football after the departure of Matt Rodgers. The trick plays that Fry is apparently so famous for, I never got to see them work. The folks who witnessed Fry 1.0 experienced something special but Fry 2.0 was a bust. Combination of poor QBs (Iowa had the equivalent of JC at QB for 7 straight years), inability to replace the original staff, and perhaps Fry's declining health diluted what could otherwise have turned out to be a much better record.

KF imo is the steadier coach whose teams rarely blow out opponents but are (almost) never outclassed. KF is now on version 3.0 and he's built a philosophy (physical, line-play oriented) that I believe suits Iowa better. All in all, I'm thankful for Fry but if I had to pick between the two for TODAY's teams, I would go with KF.