Four downs with the offensive line
- Thread starter ColumbusHawk
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guard and tackle are very interchangeable in the iowa zone blocking system. the 4 best guys will be on either side of ferentz.
if macmillan can be healthy i think he is one of the 4 best so he will be a guard or tackle. i actually think he is a guard by the end of it. van sloten and scherff will be difficult to beat out. tobin has an edge but i think that is the spot most up for grabs.
in the end i see this as the 2 deep that plays most of the yr if macmillan is healthy:
lt - scherff, donnal
lg - tobin, walsh
c - ferentz, boffeli
rg - macmillan, boffeli/walsh
rt - van sloten, donnal/macmillan
this might not be what the 2 deep says but it is never accurate to what kf will do. guards move out to tackle and someone comes in at guard has happened alot under kf. he wants his 5 best linemen on the field and will interchange positions. this is why i like the zone scheme so much it makes less emphasis on distinguishing line positions. but we do need a solid lt, which scherff would be.
if macmillan can be healthy i think he is one of the 4 best so he will be a guard or tackle. i actually think he is a guard by the end of it. van sloten and scherff will be difficult to beat out. tobin has an edge but i think that is the spot most up for grabs.
in the end i see this as the 2 deep that plays most of the yr if macmillan is healthy:
lt - scherff, donnal
lg - tobin, walsh
c - ferentz, boffeli
rg - macmillan, boffeli/walsh
rt - van sloten, donnal/macmillan
this might not be what the 2 deep says but it is never accurate to what kf will do. guards move out to tackle and someone comes in at guard has happened alot under kf. he wants his 5 best linemen on the field and will interchange positions. this is why i like the zone scheme so much it makes less emphasis on distinguishing line positions. but we do need a solid lt, which scherff would be.
hawkfarmer
Well-Known Member
Blythe will be in the mix at guard, and I think Simmons is the center in waiting.
i made a mistake i put walsh down and meant blythe.
simmons will start at center next yr i believe. but i think he will redshirt this yr.
hogeye
Well-Known Member
You keep repeating this, but this isn't exactly true the way you portray it. Yes, in a zone blocking scheme G and T talent is relatively interchangeable. However, your T's are generally your guys with better mobility. In the run blocking they are the guys that tend to have to block a DL then release and move up field to a LB.
In your pass protection situations there is a huge difference between your G and T needs. This, probably more so than run blocking requirements, is what separates the two even more.
So the talent isn't as interchangeable and adaptable as one would like to think because you still need that T talent to be your more mobile, better footwork, guys on the edge and not all OL are effective at that in pass protection.
in zone blocking you double team and 1 guy is supposed to release and get to 2nd level. who goes to the 2nd level is determined by the way the defense attacks and pressures. the guard or tackle or center could easily go to 2nd level. i have studied the zone blocking scheme as i believe it was one of the most genius concepts for football as it didnt rely on being bigger and stronger like man blocking. i have dumbed down the concept so i left a lot out but that is the basics.
in pass protection the tackle does need to be better but you can scheme to roll and such. if you dont believe that they are interchangeable just look at how kf subs in his tenure. here are a few examples: reiff and bulaga started as guards, scherff started as a guard and is now listed as a tackle, macmillan was a starting guard and is now listed as a tackle. there are just 4 examples in the last few yrs.
are the positions completely interchangeable? no. you have to have the right players, but kf recruits those types for his team. i played, i now coach, i study this sport, i have listened to kf talk about the zone scheme and he has said as much about interchanging positions on the line. but you must know more than the guy that is one of the people credited with designing zone blocking.
in pass protection the tackle does need to be better but you can scheme to roll and such. if you dont believe that they are interchangeable just look at how kf subs in his tenure. here are a few examples: reiff and bulaga started as guards, scherff started as a guard and is now listed as a tackle, macmillan was a starting guard and is now listed as a tackle. there are just 4 examples in the last few yrs.
are the positions completely interchangeable? no. you have to have the right players, but kf recruits those types for his team. i played, i now coach, i study this sport, i have listened to kf talk about the zone scheme and he has said as much about interchanging positions on the line. but you must know more than the guy that is one of the people credited with designing zone blocking.
spudhawk
Well-Known Member
Foval, I think you are missing a lot of people's point in that the best athlete of the group is pretty much destined to play Left tackle strictly because of pass pro. No matter how you scheme your protection the LT is going to be the key to a defense if you have a right handed QB. I think Iowa uses several protections through out a game and look forward to see what is changing from last season to this season.
But your examples actually sort of make the case against yourself- Bulaga was a guard when we still had a healthy Dace- best athlete on that line, Reiff was a guard when Bulaga was the the best athlete of the group. Generally left guard is (usually) a break in spot for a tackle given the flexibility of the run game and the fact Iowa almost always has a good to great left tackle and a good to great center. The right side is usually comprised of the best "true guard type" and the second best athlete with tackle size.
But your examples actually sort of make the case against yourself- Bulaga was a guard when we still had a healthy Dace- best athlete on that line, Reiff was a guard when Bulaga was the the best athlete of the group. Generally left guard is (usually) a break in spot for a tackle given the flexibility of the run game and the fact Iowa almost always has a good to great left tackle and a good to great center. The right side is usually comprised of the best "true guard type" and the second best athlete with tackle size.
I know that LT is going to be the best lineman. But in the zone blocking scheme the linemen are much more interchangeable than in a man blocking scheme. Our 5 best linemen will be on the field.
Here is an example: Say Van Sloten beats MacMillan out for RT but the coaches feel that MacMillan is still better than the guys competing for RG. MacMillan will then play RG (I would almost guarantee this).
My theory is that the 5 best linemen will be starting for Iowa no matter where they are listed on the depth chart. If one of the guards out does all the tackles don't be surprised if he is moved to tackle or another guard is moved to tackle to see how they can do there. This happens more in zone blocking schemes than it does in man blocking schemes because of the skill set and body type differences of the 2 schemes. We do run some man schemes but are by and far a zone team which is why their linemen tend to top out at about 310 lbs because it is about lateral movement at all 5 line positions. In a man scheme lateral movement is focused more on the Tackle position and the positions don't need to be as laterally quick. In the zone every player needs to be laterally quick because half of your steps tend to be lateral.
Here is an example: Say Van Sloten beats MacMillan out for RT but the coaches feel that MacMillan is still better than the guys competing for RG. MacMillan will then play RG (I would almost guarantee this).
My theory is that the 5 best linemen will be starting for Iowa no matter where they are listed on the depth chart. If one of the guards out does all the tackles don't be surprised if he is moved to tackle or another guard is moved to tackle to see how they can do there. This happens more in zone blocking schemes than it does in man blocking schemes because of the skill set and body type differences of the 2 schemes. We do run some man schemes but are by and far a zone team which is why their linemen tend to top out at about 310 lbs because it is about lateral movement at all 5 line positions. In a man scheme lateral movement is focused more on the Tackle position and the positions don't need to be as laterally quick. In the zone every player needs to be laterally quick because half of your steps tend to be lateral.
hogeye
Well-Known Member
I don't see many, if any, programs not putting their best 5 OL on the field. I get the basic gist you're trying to make a distinction between what Iowa runs versus other schools, but frankly some of these comments are just ridiculous. Regardless of scheme your better talent is generally at T for various reasons.
As far as lateral movement, your zone blocking theory isn't panning out. Zone blocking schemes, including Iowa's flavor, insist on OL to be able to block down field. Often times requiring a lineman to either block and release to get down field on a LBer, or to go directly down field to a LB. Not to mention fold blocking and other skills required to move vertically. Yes, there is reach blocking that requires lateral movement, but in general I don't think it's fair to say that Iowa's zone scheme is predicated on lateral movement on running plays.
As far as lateral movement, your zone blocking theory isn't panning out. Zone blocking schemes, including Iowa's flavor, insist on OL to be able to block down field. Often times requiring a lineman to either block and release to get down field on a LBer, or to go directly down field to a LB. Not to mention fold blocking and other skills required to move vertically. Yes, there is reach blocking that requires lateral movement, but in general I don't think it's fair to say that Iowa's zone scheme is predicated on lateral movement on running plays.
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hawkfan2679
Well-Known Member
I think to some extent you are both right. In my experience there are two types of zone running plays, inside zone and outside zone (stretch).
Inside Zone [We do this more than stretch, esp with Coker in the backfield]: While both zone plays excel when an OL is successful in getting to the second level, the inside zone is more predicated on that movement. Inside zone really is all about getting two hats on one, driving the DL back into the LB's, then one of the OL blading off to pick up the reacting defender (in a perfect world). You'd like for the backside player to overtake the block, but it isn't as critical on an inside zone play. There is definitely an element of lateral movement with inside zone. It usually hits between the tackles, although the RB is really given a 3-way go on the play...he can bang it up inside, bounce it outside, or cut it back, which is where a lot of big plays can happen on inside zone.
Outside Zone: Outside zone speaks more to Foval's point about lateral movement. Basically every OL is trying to overtake the man in front (read: DL to the playside) of him. The backside OL is trying to get his head in front of the defender to create a seam option for the RB to use, but if blocked perfectly, the EMLOS (end man on line of scrimmage) is hooked by the OT/TE and the play hits big around the corner. The interior lineman generally have the rule that if the DL in front of them slants away, they are going to the 2nd level immediately, but it's important that they stop penetration with lateral movement first. RB really only has a 2 way go on this one...it's not a play that is set up for a cutback past the center, although playside there may be several cut "up" opportunities.
That's my $0.02.
3 types of zone blocking plays (basics) inside - rb aims for outside shoulder of guard, outside - rb aims for outside shoulder of tackle, stretch - rb aims for outside shoulder of te type position.
i am not discounting downfield movement. lateral movement and the defensive movement determines who must go downfield. and because of that the tackles and guards are more interchangeable on run plays. in fact the reach block (lateral) done by guards usually is one of the hardest blocks in football. but centers and tackles do the same block to initiate the double teams (in zone blocking everything is predicated on the initial double teams - at least 2 on each play). the fold block that was brought up is known in zone blocking as the pin and pull which is about initial lateral movement to pin the backside defender and allow the backside lineman to pull around and get to the second level. to be good at this it is about lateral movement and all 5 positions have to be able to do it.
i am not discounting downfield movement. lateral movement and the defensive movement determines who must go downfield. and because of that the tackles and guards are more interchangeable on run plays. in fact the reach block (lateral) done by guards usually is one of the hardest blocks in football. but centers and tackles do the same block to initiate the double teams (in zone blocking everything is predicated on the initial double teams - at least 2 on each play). the fold block that was brought up is known in zone blocking as the pin and pull which is about initial lateral movement to pin the backside defender and allow the backside lineman to pull around and get to the second level. to be good at this it is about lateral movement and all 5 positions have to be able to do it.
The line situation looks earily like 2007. When the first depth charts had Bulaga behind a green Colloway at LT, Doering behind Keumple at LG, Eubanks at C, a green Julian V at RG, and Olsen at RT.
Richardson was the missing link, as MacMillan has been.
Bulaga turned out to be worth the hype, Doering didn't.
Raphael was a good tactician, but not ever overpowering.
JV surprised.
Richardson was the missing link, as MacMillan has been.
Bulaga turned out to be worth the hype, Doering didn't.
Raphael was a good tactician, but not ever overpowering.
JV surprised.
spudhawk
Well-Known Member
There are certainly some parallels and that o-line struggled at times, but I thought that was KOK'S worst playcalling season as well. Iowa passed way too much given the talent they possessed at tailback and teams were able to generate pressure with only 4 players due to JC's indecision and general inaccuracy. Iowa has more #s at the oline this season, better recievers and a huge leap at Qb.
I know I am drilling the schedule into the ground but it couldn't possibly be better set up to iron out potential kinks in the offense and I expect this group to be good.
Okay, could it possibly be that the inexperience on the line had something to do with four guys getting pressure, or KOK's play calling?
Also, that line had Doering, Bulaga, Eubanks, Calloway, Olsen, and an injured Dace. Those were all HIGHLY regarded recruits. On the line there is just no substitute for experience.
Finally, please go back and look at the 2007 schedule. No UM, No OSU, a horrible Syracuse team, and the infamous end of the year WMU debacle. Remember that year also started with NIU in Soldier Field. That schedule was arguably easier than this year's schedule.
Also, that line had Doering, Bulaga, Eubanks, Calloway, Olsen, and an injured Dace. Those were all HIGHLY regarded recruits. On the line there is just no substitute for experience.
Finally, please go back and look at the 2007 schedule. No UM, No OSU, a horrible Syracuse team, and the infamous end of the year WMU debacle. Remember that year also started with NIU in Soldier Field. That schedule was arguably easier than this year's schedule.
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