? for Lick haters

[azhawkphan]

Do you honestly think it's Lick that people hate? And not what has happened to our program under his leadership?

Regardless, your hypothetical is too vague to really answer. Is this new coach's record improving every season? Does there seem to be a light at the end of the tunnel that isn't an oncoming locomotive? Is it an entertaining style of basketball?

If the new coach's team had the exact same characteristics as Lick's, I imagine the the time frame would be the same as well.

My question to you is can you think of another university in the country whose coach WOULDN'T be on the hot seat if he had led his new team to three of the worst consecutive seasons in the school's history?

Do you honestly think what has happened to our program is because of Lick's leadership or has happened during Lick's tenure? Really? That is a very myopic view... Iowa had some pretty good success in the BT and in the NCAAs from 1979 - 1988. What happened to our program under Mr. Davis's leadership in the 90s or in 00s under Alford? Is Lick the one to lead us back to contending for BT titles, I don't know, but he can be IMO. But the current state of our program did not happen under his leadership... it started happening long ago. Did this mess happen because of Lick or is Lick trying to fix the mess?

 

[loesshillshawk]

Do you honestly think what has happened to our program is because of Lick's leadership or has happened during Lick's tenure? Really? That is a very myopic view... Iowa had some pretty good success in the BT and in the NCAAs from 1979 - 1988. What happened to our program under Mr. Davis's leadership in the 90s or in 00s under Alford? Is Lick the one to lead us back to contending for BT titles, I don't know, but he can be IMO. But the current state of our program did not happen under his leadership... it started happening long ago. Did this mess happen because of Lick or is Lick trying to fix the mess?

I honestly believe in my heart our current state of affairs is because of Lick. He is coaching this team...and getting paid big bucks to produce. You can hire a good coach and turn it around in one year...or see noticeable progress at any school. Hell I hate to bring it up but Minnesota was down and out...no tournament appearances for 10 years and Tubby made them relevant again. We are not relevant and most talking heads consider us a joke. Dems da facts Jack...

 

[lightning1]

13-19. Roster: Freeman, Johnson, Tate, Kelly, Cole, Peterson, Looby
15-17. Roster: Kelly, Tate, Peterson, Tucker, Cole, Gatens, Davis, Fuller, Brommer
9-18. Roster: Gatens, May, Cole, Fuller, Cougil, Brommer, Payne, Lick jr
After 3 years he has 1 player on the current roster that started the same time he did.
When you consider that, with his over-all record of 37-54. I dont see any reason to retain him.
The new coach should be winning more games by season 3, than he did in season 1 and he should be coaching more than 1 JR, or he gets the pink slip.

 

[azhawkphan]

I honestly believe in my heart our current state of affairs is because of Lick. He is coaching this team...and getting paid big bucks to produce. You can hire a good coach and turn it around in one year...or see noticeable progress at any school. Hell I hate to bring it up but Minnesota was down and out...no tournament appearances for 10 years and Tubby made them relevant again. We are not relevant and most talking heads consider us a joke. Dems da facts Jack...

Really? Minnesota is not relevant. Tubby's first year finished year not ranked, 8-10 in BT, 108 RPI, 135 SOS, 1st round loss in NIT. Second year finished NR, 9-9 in BT, 42 RPI, 35 SOS, 1st round loss in NCAA. This year so far NR, 5-7 in BT, 80 RPI, 47 SOS. (source: statsheet.com) Not relevant. Also, Lick does not make what an average BT coach makes. Lick ~$1.2M, the ave. BT bball coach makes ~$1.4M. Be mad about how much college coaches make in general, but don't blame Lick for that too. Also, name me one BT school that "turned it around" in one year that wasn't a one year wonder. Maybe Thad Matta, but I believe OSU invested a bit more in the bball program before Matta got there than has Iowa (could be wrong though). Also, what coach is going to come here now when we couldn't get that coach 3 years ago. I don't think Lick was at or near the top of our list when we tried to hire a coach 3 years ago. Also, (and I think Lick himself did not fully realize the extent of the mess he was walking into) what did Lick have at his disposal to sell recruits when he first came here? The program has not been relevant since 1987, the facilities were/are crap - significant investments going to football, Carver had a bunch of old people close to the floor and students tucked in a corner, football program was sort of down, last first round NBA draft pick was Acie Earl... Don't need all of these to be successful, but all of this? He basically had his NCOY to sell them. Not great. Alford/Neal weren't bringing in studs? Not defending Lick (think he has many things to improve), but just pointing out our issues do not fall entirely on his shoulders.

 

[azhawkphan]

13-19. Roster: Freeman, Johnson, Tate, Kelly, Cole, Peterson, Looby
15-17. Roster: Kelly, Tate, Peterson, Tucker, Cole, Gatens, Davis, Fuller, Brommer
9-18. Roster: Gatens, May, Cole, Fuller, Cougil, Brommer, Payne, Lick jr
After 3 years he has 1 player on the current roster that started the same time he did.
When you consider that, with his over-all record of 37-54. I dont see any reason to retain him.
The new coach should be winning more games by season 3, than he did in season 1 and he should be coaching more than 1 JR, or he gets the pink slip.

The only player of the ones that transferred that I miss is Kelly. I think this team would be way better with him. I believe he has even said it was a mistake to transfer. The others were not program changers, IMO. Now, I have no knowledge of what Lick's plan is, but I think I can see his line of thinking:
1.) Implement coach's system
2.) Let the players who don't buy in, don't want to be there, or are disiplinary problems go
3.) Hope like hell the new facilities get built in a hurry
4.) Establish better and more AAU relationships
5.) Get players in here that fit the system and want to be here

I am not claiming to know if this is his plan, but more or less it appears that way from the outside (sure looks alot like Ferentz's line of thinking, IMO). Agree or disagree, like his system or not... I think Lick has a plan to change the culture of what was here before he got here and establishing a way of doing things that will lead to sustained success. Like I said, not defending him as I am not sure he can pull this off, but I think I can see what he is trying to do at a high level, and it will take time. I wish Lick had the AAU connections he needed when he got here and could have pulled some better recruits in the beginning, but the coaches that have those connections weren't exactly banging down our door to come here if you remember. Its not like Lick has ruined some sort of dynasty here. I think he has taken 2 steps back in order to move 3,4,5 steps forward.

 

[hawkdoctor]

If, in year three, you told me we the football team would win more than the basketball team, I would have been blown away. Three years is plenty of time. We're faced with year four likely not producing a post season trip. The alarm should go off some time.

BTW, I'm not a Lick hater. I actually like the guy and certainly respect how he handled Tucker. In fact, my support grew for him because he stands by his principles. He could have yielded to winning like Mac did at ISU. Winning is the primary thing he should be judged on and that isn't going too well.

 

[eyekwah]

Do we have to rehash this stuff? And do we have to continue down this "hater"/"apologist" road?

Just asking.

Obviously some people have a *ard on for Coach Lickliter and enjoy beating on it endlessly. So I guess we just let them do it publicly so they can get their jollies.

 

[NewMexHawk]

When someone get fired from a job, is it because management "hated them" or was it because of other factors, such as the person was not doing the job he/she was hired to do.

The personal side has nothing to do with the business side of a firing. So to call Iowa fans "lick haters" is just wrong. All Iowa fans want what is best for the program...they just have different opinions.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

Do you honestly think what has happened to our program is because of Lick's leadership or has happened during Lick's tenure? Really?

But the current state of our program did not happen under his leadership... it started happening long ago. Did this mess happen because of Lick or is Lick trying to fix the mess?

Wow.

Yes, really.

I believe what's going on right now is because of Lickliter's leadership. Lickliter is the head coach of our program, and while I agree that not everything that has happened the past 2.5+ years is his fault (Tucker's arrests, Cy Tate's injury, Jake Kelly's mom), this is still TL's program, and almost every player on this roster is HIS recruit. There have still been a number of other players leaving the program because they are unhappy for one reason or another. We are still losing far more than we are winning.

To say that this year's 9-18 record has anything whatsoever to do with Steve Alford is simply, and blatantly, false.

Fact: The worst 3-year stretch of Iowa Basketball has occurred while Todd Lickliter has been our coach.

Fact: Steve Alford finished his tenure at Iowa with 7 straight winning seasons, and NCAA appearances in 2 of the last 3 years.

Fact: Todd Lickliter has been sub .500 in his first 3 seasons as our coach, following those 7 consecutive winning seasons.

It is backwards thinking to shift the blame from Todd Lickliter to Steve Alford, when Todd Lickliter has been the coach during all of this losing.

If we assume that Todd Lickliter is cleaning up Steve Alford's "mess", then he is doing a pi$$ poor job of it so far, given that we are losing at a far greater rate than at any time when Alford was our coach.

 

[tubahawk]

Really? Minnesota is not relevant. Tubby's first year finished year not ranked, 8-10 in BT, 108 RPI, 135 SOS, 1st round loss in NIT. Second year finished NR, 9-9 in BT, 42 RPI, 35 SOS, 1st round loss in NCAA. This year so far NR, 5-7 in BT, 80 RPI, 47 SOS. (source: statsheet.com) Not relevant. Also, Lick does not make what an average BT coach makes. Lick ~$1.2M, the ave. BT bball coach makes ~$1.4M. Be mad about how much college coaches make in general, but don't blame Lick for that too. Also, name me one BT school that "turned it around" in one year that wasn't a one year wonder. Maybe Thad Matta, but I believe OSU invested a bit more in the bball program before Matta got there than has Iowa (could be wrong though). Also, what coach is going to come here now when we couldn't get that coach 3 years ago. I don't think Lick was at or near the top of our list when we tried to hire a coach 3 years ago. Also, (and I think Lick himself did not fully realize the extent of the mess he was walking into) what did Lick have at his disposal to sell recruits when he first came here? The program has not been relevant since 1987, the facilities were/are crap - significant investments going to football, Carver had a bunch of old people close to the floor and students tucked in a corner, football program was sort of down, last first round NBA draft pick was Acie Earl... Don't need all of these to be successful, but all of this? He basically had his NCOY to sell them. Not great. Alford/Neal weren't bringing in studs? Not defending Lick (think he has many things to improve), but just pointing out our issues do not fall entirely on his shoulders.

Maybe we're arguing the semantics of what relevant means, but Minnesota has made much much more progress than Iowa in the last 3 years. Sure we can disucss which program was in better shape 3 years ago, but Minny hadn't been in the NCAA tourny for 10 years. Tubby got them there in his second year.

Iowa had been to the tourney in the last 5 years, yet we're still realistically two years away from seeing the NCAA.

I'd take Minny's last three years over Iowa's any day.

 

[azhawkphan]

Wow.
It is backwards thinking to shift the blame from Todd Lickliter to Steve Alford, when Todd Lickliter has been the coach during all of this losing.

If we assume that Todd Lickliter is cleaning up Steve Alford's "mess", then he is doing a pi$$ poor job of it so far, given that we are losing at a far greater rate than at any time when Alford was our coach.

Nowhere did I blame Alford for this mess either... I don't think the program was in any better shape when Alford left than when he got here. The cupboards weren't exactly stocked with talent when he left. Nor did the personalities and skills of the players left fit Lick's system very well. We hired a system coach, like it or not. He is implementing it, like it or not. It will take time, like it or not. I don't think Lick was a quick fix hire. I don't think Barta or Lick set those expectations, could be wrong though. I actually am not one of the Alford haters or Lick people. But don't throw Alfords records out there and compare them to Lick. Way different situations, and if you are happy with Alford's records, then you don't remember why Mr. Davis was run off and where this program was headed in the 80s. I don't think that the Iowa administration invested the resources in our bball program for it to be successful on a consistent basis (since Carver was built in 1983). I don't have numbers to back that up, but that is my sense from our facilities being considered bottom BT, recruiting has suffered as a whole for the last 20 years (can't tell me Mr. Davis's/Alfords/Licks recruits same caliber as Lute/Raveling as a whole), football has seen tremendous investment, and coaches avoided us like the plague when we replaced Alford (coaches with connections to Iowa). I am not defending Lick really, I think he has many areas to improve and he better figure it out quickly. It's easy to say that the worst 3 year history of Iowa basketball has happened under Lick and blame him and want to fire him now. But I think we are all interested in getting Iowa back to where it was 25 years ago with Lute, Raveling (recruiter Raveling), and Mr. Davis's early years... firing Lick doesn't change or fix anything to get us there any sooner. You get what you pay for... Iowa invested in football and let the investments in basketball slip it looks like from the outside (or they invested the last 20 plus years in the way wrong stuff for basketball).

 

[burky247]

Do you honestly think what has happened to our program is because of Lick's leadership or has happened during Lick's tenure? Really? That is a very myopic view... Iowa had some pretty good success in the BT and in the NCAAs from 1979 - 1988. What happened to our program under Mr. Davis's leadership in the 90s or in 00s under Alford? Is Lick the one to lead us back to contending for BT titles, I don't know, but he can be IMO. But the current state of our program did not happen under his leadership... it started happening long ago. Did this mess happen because of Lick or is Lick trying to fix the mess?

Hell yes I honestly think it's because of Lick's leadership. Or lack of.

Unlike some, I don't need BT titles to be content. But I do need quality basketball, minimal turnover, and a competitive team.

People who don't realize how far we have fallen under TL just amaze me.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

Maybe we're arguing the semantics of what relevant means, but Minnesota has made much much more progress than Iowa in the last 3 years. Sure we can disucss which program was in better shape 3 years ago, but Minny hadn't been in the NCAA tourny for 10 years. Tubby got them there in his second year.

Iowa had been to the tourney in the last 5 years, yet we're still realistically two years away from seeing the NCAA.

I'd take Minny's last three years over Iowa's any day.

Minnesota is not relevant from a national perspective, but Tubby had them playing far better in his very first year as their coach. Ditto for Alford at New Mexico actually, since we're on the topic.

There were no excuses about how Dan Monson's players didn't fit Tubby's system, or how they needed time to learn a new system. I also don't remember hearing about how all of Monson's players bolted for other programs when Smith was hired, either.

Minnesota's program was in miserable shape when Tubby took over, and he had them in the NIT the first year, after having a previous year's record similar to what we are seeing in year 3 of Lickliter's tenure.

One year IS enough time to show progress with a program. I didn't say Elite 8's or Big Ten titles. Just progress. Is that too much to ask for in 3 years? I think not.

 

[tm3308]

Maybe we're arguing the semantics of what relevant means, but Minnesota has made much much more progress than Iowa in the last 3 years. Sure we can disucss which program was in better shape 3 years ago, but Minny hadn't been in the NCAA tourny for 10 years. Tubby got them there in his second year.

Iowa had been to the tourney in the last 5 years, yet we're still realistically two years away from seeing the NCAA.

I'd take Minny's last three years over Iowa's any day.

I would too, but I also think that Lickliter can get this turned around eventually, and I'd be willing to bet that 15 years down the road, we'll be saying something like "Minnesota can have those first three years, 'cause we owned that last 15." I think we'll be far better off in the long run if we keep Lick at this point. If more core players transfer, then I will likely be singing a different tune. But for now, I say keep him.

 

[azhawkphan]

1977Hawkeye;59691]Minnesota is not relevant from a national perspective, but Tubby had them playing far better in his very first year as their coach. Ditto for Alford at New Mexico actually, since we're on the topic.[/B]
Yep, agreed Tubby had them playing better, but I would not call Minnesota relevant at this point which was what another poster said. Not playing better, but relevant. Not saying Alford was a bad coach. He didn't get it done at Iowa. Iowa's bball program dropped a bit under Mr. Davis in the 90s (from his first couple of teams in 87 & 88), then dropped quite a bit under Alford. Yes Alford got them to 2 NCAAs, but with a veteran team where the leaders were upperclassmen from Iowa natively. The BT was weak his last year at Iowa finishing 4th and still didn't get to the NITs. Why do you think Alford was looking to go to Indiana and Missouri his last few years and finally New Mexico at the end? Do you think it was because he thought he had the resources he needed for success/competitiveness at Iowa? I think not.


There were no excuses about how Dan Monson's players didn't fit Tubby's system, or how they needed time to learn a new system. I also don't remember hearing about how all of Monson's players bolted for other programs when Smith was hired, either.
We didn't hire Tubby Smith or a coach with his national reputation. I think we tried to hire that type of coach, but it appears we were rebuffed. We hired a system coach from a mid major to come here to install that system for long term success. Who do you think that will come here now that wouldn't come here 3 years ago?

Minnesota's program was in miserable shape when Tubby took over, and he had them in the NIT the first year, after having a previous year's record similar to what we are seeing in year 3 of Lickliter's tenure.

One year IS enough time to show progress with a program. I didn't say Elite 8's or Big Ten titles. Just progress. Is that too much to ask for in 3 years? I think not.
One year is enough time to show progress when half the team the first 2 years transferred because they either had a problem with Lick personally or his system or were discipline problems? I think Lick's future will be determined with this last recruiting class. Again, we didn't hire Tubby Smith or Bruce Pearl or that type of coach.

Again, I am really not a Lick apologist. I don't know if his "system" will work, I don't think he has the horses to determine that. I liked watching his Butler teams for the most part the few times I saw them. I don't know how well he can recruit, but he has shown progress there. Again, we hired a system coach from a mid major. He didn't have the AAU connections and other things needed to recruit well. Looks to be improving there. We got rid of Davis because the program did not progress under his leadership after more than 10 years. We got rid of Alford because the the program did not progress under his leadership. The point I am trying to make is that we have bigger problems than the coach that have manifested themselves over the last 20 years. Putting imaginary 1-3 year success criteria on coaches and then firing them is not going to return us to our success of the 80s or really make us competitive or relevant any sooner. Got to look at the big picture, see what it is going to take to fix all the issues. IMO, churning through coach's every 3 years will keep us in the bottom of the BT.

 

[tubahawk]

I'd be willing to bet that 15 years down the road, we'll be saying something like "Minnesota can have those first three years, 'cause we owned that last 15."

I sincerely hope this happens. At this point I truly have my doubts, but would be eager to eat my words.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

Again, I am really not a Lick apologist. I don't know if his "system" will work, I don't think he has the horses to determine that. I liked watching his Butler teams for the most part the few times I saw them. I don't know how well he can recruit, but he has shown progress there. Again, we hired a system coach from a mid major. He didn't have the AAU connections and other things needed to recruit well. Looks to be improving there. We got rid of Davis because the program did not progress under his leadership after more than 10 years. We got rid of Alford because the the program did not progress under his leadership. The point I am trying to make is that we have bigger problems than the coach that have manifested themselves over the last 20 years. Putting imaginary 1-3 year success criteria on coaches and then firing them is not going to return us to our success of the 80s or really make us competitive or relevant any sooner. Got to look at the big picture, see what it is going to take to fix all the issues. IMO, churning through coach's every 3 years will keep us in the bottom of the BT.

IMO, the "system" would work fine with the necessary talent, and you are hitting on what I think is the fundamental problem - not having the horses. I simply believe we don't have skilled/athletic enough players to run it successfully, or not enough of them anyway.

When recruiting Harrison Barnes, I saw some people ask if he would fit the system.. To me, that is sheer nonsense. I think athletic players that can run, jump and shoot would do just fine under Lickliter. I don't think that Lick's system is such a unique animal that only a specific type of player can execute it. The one exception being that this team needs great shooters because we shoot so many 3's. But regardless of the system, I think we all agree it's a good idea to have players that can shoot.

I think we all WAY overblow this whole "system" thing. Before Lickliter was hired, you would hardly see the word "system", so I don't know where this all came from. All coaches have some sort of system/philosophy and coach the game to be played a certain way, and Lickliter is no exception. Davis had a system. So did Alford. Lickliter has a system as well. But it's still basketball.

I agree that constantly firing coaches isn't the answer, but I hardly think anybody can say that's been the norm for Iowa. Davis was here 13 years. Alford for 8. In the past 25+ years, Lickliter would be the only coach fired in a very short time if he is cut loose this year or next. Given that we're in the worst 3-year stretch in our history, wouldn't we be justified if we don't hang onto Lickliter for 5+ years?

I don't know if he's going to get it done or not, and I have my doubts. For the record though, I'm in favor of one more year to see what he can do with a full roster. If the current fears of more transfers comes to fruition though, then all bets are off and we'd be starting all over... AGAIN. At that point, I think we'd have to admit a pattern of player-retention problems, and IMO, the Lickliter era isn't going to end well.

We don't know what the future will bring, though, so only time will tell. I say next year is the tell-all season.

 

[tm3308]

IMO, the "system" would work fine with the necessary talent, and you are hitting on what I think is the fundamental problem - not having the horses. I simply believe we don't have skilled/athletic enough players to run it successfully, or not enough of them anyway.

When recruiting Harrison Barnes, I saw some people ask if he would fit the system.. To me, that is sheer nonsense. I think athletic players that can run, jump and shoot would do just fine under Lickliter. I don't think that Lick's system is such a unique animal that only a specific type of player can execute it. The one exception being that this team needs great shooters because we shoot so many 3's. But regardless of the system, I think we all agree it's a good idea to have players that can shoot.

I think we all WAY overblow this whole "system" thing. Before Lickliter was hired, you would hardly see the word "system", so I don't know where this all came from. All coaches have some sort of system/philosophy and coach the game to be played a certain way, and Lickliter is no exception. Davis had a system. So did Alford. Lickliter has a system as well. But it's still basketball.

I agree that constantly firing coaches isn't the answer, but I hardly think anybody can say that's been the norm for Iowa. Davis was here 13 years. Alford for 8. In the past 25+ years, Lickliter would be the only coach fired in a very short time if he is cut loose this year or next. Given that we're in the worst 3-year stretch in our history, wouldn't we be justified if we don't hang onto Lickliter for 5+ years?

I don't know if he's going to get it done or not, and I have my doubts. For the record though, I'm in favor of one more year to see what he can do with a full roster. If the current fears of more transfers comes to fruition though, then all bets are off and we'd be starting all over... AGAIN. At that point, I think we'd have to admit a pattern of player-retention problems, and IMO, the Lickliter era isn't going to end well.

We don't know what the future will bring, though, so only time will tell. I say next year is the tell-all season.

It's true that any player who can run, jump, and shoot will fit any system. The problem is not the physical aspect. More often than not, those guys who can run want to run. It's all mental, and not every guy is going to fit the system, because there are guys who will simply choose not to. That's a big difference from "the system can't work". It's up to the players to buy in.

 

[GrandpaHawk]

First of all I don't hate Lick,I just don't like his system.It's boring to watch and the players we have are way to slow.A change has to be made if your going to fill the arena.We need some one that can recruit and energize the program because he's not doing it for me.I even changed channels when we went into OT because we couldn't put Mich. away and I new what the outcome was going to be.He's a nice guy just not the right fit for Iowa.

 

[seepig]

Look Andy Katz is a putz and has always been an Hawkeye hater. Based on defections you have to give Lickliter 2 more seasons. Having said that two things need to happen: First, he needs a winning season next year. Second, he needs to make the NCAAs the following year. If he fails at either he needs to be escorted off campus. We had our chances after the pompous Alford left and we let Pearl's ravings about Lickliter be the deciding factor.