Chase Young Suspended

There is no way anything like this would happen during Urban Meyer's tenure at any University...I don't believe any of this nonsense. LOL...I couldn't even type that I was laughing so hard.
 
Fryowa said:
Sorry man, when there's a guaranteed $20+ million on the table or a possibility of ending up like Jake Butt, teammate status is out of the question. Any coach or teammate who'd disparage a player for turning down guaranteed money that would set up his family for decades to come is a POS.

What you said might have been true before huge guaranteed rookie contracts became a thing, but the whole "with your shield or on it" machismo bullshit is idiotic. This isn't Randy Quaid flying a crop duster into an alien ship to save humanity here, it's a football game played by kids who aren't going to care in a few years.
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I get what you are saying and agree that players should consider potential effects on career earnings as ONE of many factors in making such decisions. But I also think we tend to take certain anecdotes/examples and draw faulty conclusions.

Butt was projected as a 2nd round pick prior to tearing his ACL. After the injury, he was drafted in the 5th round. Because of that, he lost about $3.6 million in guaranteed money. But, he recouped about $500,000 on a loss-of-value policy that he took out before his senior year, and he has made roughly $1 million in pro earnings thus far.

While his ACL tear in the Orange Bowl was unfortunate, it did NOT derail his career. The cumulative effect of tearing his ACL as a freshman in college, tearing it again in the Orange Bowl, and then tearing it again in a non-contact drill during his 2nd professional season did that. So we can't really say it was the Orange Bowl injury that ruined everything, because if had not injured the ACL then, he could have just as easily injured it in his first NFL mini-camp, or when getting ready for the NFL draft. So the injury definitely cost him guaranteed money, but not his career.

The $3.6 million guaranteed lost is shame, but he has still pocketed $1.5 million. Comparatively, someone like Ben Niemann probably risked a lot more by playing in the Pinstripe. Based upon his draft profile, he would not have been eligible for a Loss-of-Value policy. And if he had torn an ACL in the Pinstripe, he likely never would have gotten a chance at an NFL career (the Drew Ott story pretty much bears this out). By the end of this season, Niemann will have made about $1 million, and he could potentially have a long career and earn much more.

So Butt lost millions, but still made over a million. Niemann could also have lost millions, and his fall back would have been $0. So who was really risking more, Niemann or Butt?

Or what about players with no pro-prospects at all? They could potentially suffer life-changing injuries like paralysis, loss of limbs, or even death. Are they not also risking?

So all players are taking on tremendous risk, not just the superstars. And if every season is "National Championship or bust", realistically there are only probably 7 or 8 teams left who have not already busted. So there over 120 teams full of 100-player rosters, and all 10,000+ of those players are risking a lot "for nothing." Yet, the ones that "shut it down" are far and away the exception, not the rule.

Players continue to play because it is not just a means of securing an income, it is about teamwork, brotherhood, memories, and competition. Those things have value too. And in terms of bringing us happiness, those things are more valuable. For those in difficult financial situations, enough money to bring comfort has a huge impact on quality of life. But once you have met your basic needs, more money does not equal more happiness.

So whenever you hear, "He would be a fool to risk $$$ for nothing!", realize that all players are accepting risk, but they are doing so knowingly because the benefit is significant, even if there is not a national championship on the line. And I don't think anyone would like the outcome if every single player bailed as soon as their season goals were out of reach. That would be the complete death of any idea that sports can mean more than wins/losses and dollars and cents. And I think once that ideal is gone, people stop caring about sports.
 
CP87 said:
I get what you are saying and agree that players should consider potential effects on career earnings as ONE of many factors in making such decisions. But I also think we tend to take certain anecdotes/examples and draw faulty conclusions.

Butt was projected as a 2nd round pick prior to tearing his ACL. After the injury, he was drafted in the 5th round. Because of that, he lost about $3.6 million in guaranteed money. But, he recouped about $500,000 on a loss-of-value policy that he took out before his senior year, and he has made roughly $1 million in pro earnings thus far.

While his ACL tear in the Orange Bowl was unfortunate, it did NOT derail his career. The cumulative effect of tearing his ACL as a freshman in college, tearing it again in the Orange Bowl, and then tearing it again in a non-contact drill during his 2nd professional season did that. So we can't really say it was the Orange Bowl injury that ruined everything, because if had not injured the ACL then, he could have just as easily injured it in his first NFL mini-camp, or when getting ready for the NFL draft. So the injury definitely cost him guaranteed money, but not his career.
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I used Jake Butt as an example because of his situation, not really because of his total lost earnings. A first round rookie contract can easily be over $20 million dollars. If Kyler Murray had suffered a career ending injury or one that had pushed him into say, the 4th or 5th round, he would have lost an amount of money that could have set him and all of his family up for life. Children would never have to worry about college, affording a home, vehicle, or any other sort of life security. I'm not talking about 30 Bentleys and olympic swimming pools for his wife and kids, I'm talking that he would secure the financial well-being (and many other forms of well being) for himself and anyone else in his life that he needs to.

CP87 said:
The $3.6 million guaranteed lost is shame, but he has still pocketed $1.5 million. Comparatively, someone like Ben Niemann probably risked a lot more by playing in the Pinstripe. Based upon his draft profile, he would not have been eligible for a Loss-of-Value policy. And if he had torn an ACL in the Pinstripe, he likely never would have gotten a chance at an NFL career (the Drew Ott story pretty much bears this out). By the end of this season, Niemann will have made about $1 million, and he could potentially have a long career and earn much more.
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Again, $20+ million is very, very differnt than $3-4 million. Neither is chump change by any means, but first and second round money is absolutely staggering and fully guaranteed. You get hurt before you set foot on a pro field? Still getting checks. It's a risk/reward scenario, and I am mainly saying that it applies much more to people projected to get guaranteed contracts. At that point it becomes a no-brainer because as soon as you sign that dotted line you are covered 100% against any future injury.

CP87 said:
Or what about players with no pro-prospects at all? They could potentially suffer life-changing injuries like paralysis, loss of limbs, or even death. Are they not also risking?
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I'd argue that a career-ending or career-hindering knee or ankle injury is much more likely--and frequent--than paralysis, loss of limb, or death. That example is a little hyperbolic; I don't know the number of ACL tears that occur in the NFL each year, but we can agree that it's a high number.

CP87 said:
But once you have met your basic needs, more money does not equal more happiness.
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I strongly disagree with that on a fundamental level. My basic needs are met, I'm healthy, my small house is paid for, and I don't have any debt. I can tell you unequivocally that I would have much, MUCH more freedom and fun if I were a healthy millionaire who didn't have to work. I don't believe in an afterlife, so to me we all have a ticking clock until it goes dark. Being able to do whatever you want with those limited years is made possible by having a bunch of money (assuming health as well), and in that sense money does in fact "buy" you happiness. If it doesn't, it's due to outside circumstances or bad luck.

CP87 said:
So whenever you hear, "He would be a fool to risk $$$ for nothing!", realize that all players are accepting risk,
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I'm sorry, but not all players are assuming the same amount of risk. A player who will become say, a businessperson after his college career absolutely takes on less risk than a Kyler Murray or Baker Mayfield. In the same vein, a Bowl Game win would probably mean a lot more to the average Joe player because it would likely be the highlight and pinnacle of his career. A $30 million dollar draft pick with potential to make, say, $100 million over time and ensure the security of your family and even future generations...that's a much greater risk, and a much greater payoff than winning a Citrus Bowl.
 
Fryowa said:
I used Jake Butt as an example because of his situation, not really because of his total lost earnings. A first round rookie contract can easily be over $20 million dollars. If Kyler Murray had suffered a career ending injury or one that had pushed him into say, the 4th or 5th round, he would have lost an amount of money that could have set him and all of his family up for life. Children would never have to worry about college, affording a home, vehicle, or any other sort of life security. I'm not talking about 30 Bentleys and olympic swimming pools for his wife and kids, I'm talking that he would secure the financial well-being (and many other forms of well being) for himself and anyone else in his life that he needs to.

Again, $20+ million is very, very different than $3-4 million. Neither is chump change by any means, but first and second round money is absolutely staggering and fully guaranteed. You get hurt before you set foot on a pro field? Still getting checks. It's a risk/reward scenario, and I am mainly saying that it applies much more to people projected to get guaranteed contracts. At that point it becomes a no-brainer because as soon as you sign that dotted line you are covered 100% against any future injury.

I'd argue that a career-ending or career-hindering knee or ankle injury is much more likely--and frequent--than paralysis, loss of limb, or death. That example is a little hyperbolic; I don't know the number of ACL tears that occur in the NFL each year, but we can agree that it's a high number.

I strongly disagree with that on a fundamental level. My basic needs are met, I'm healthy, my small house is paid for, and I don't have any debt. I can tell you unequivocally that I would have much, MUCH more freedom and fun if I were a healthy millionaire who didn't have to work. I don't believe in an afterlife, so to me we all have a ticking clock until it goes dark. Being able to do whatever you want with those limited years is made possible by having a bunch of money (assuming health as well), and in that sense money does in fact "buy" you happiness. If it doesn't, it's due to outside circumstances or bad luck.


I'm sorry, but not all players are assuming the same amount of risk. A player who will become say, a businessperson after his college career absolutely takes on less risk than a Kyler Murray or Baker Mayfield. In the same vein, a Bowl Game win would probably mean a lot more to the average Joe player because it would likely be the highlight and pinnacle of his career. A $30 million dollar draft pick with potential to make, say, $100 million over time and ensure the security of your family and even future generations...that's a much greater risk, and a much greater payoff than winning a Citrus Bowl.
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I would argue the difference between $1million and $0 is much more significant than the difference between $20 million and $4 million, and I don't think you could ever convince me otherwise (we might have to agree to disagree on that).

Jaylon Smith lost more than $10 million in guaranteed money due to his bowl-game injury. He is the other oft-cited example of how much these potential high-draft picks are risking. But again, even had the injury been career-ending, he would have pocketed millions of dollars. His injury was not career ending, and he just signed a $64 million extension.

Yes, ACL injuries are much more common than amputations, paralysis, or death. But run-of-the-mill joint injuries that occur in a bowl game and derail a career are almost unheard of. Everyone cites Butt (who had other injuries that occurred besides his bowl injury that were the real issue) and Smith (who will have career earnings that surpass $50 million). There have not been many others. And those injuries could have happened in draft-prep (like Simmons from MSU last year). Or against Illinois in mid-season (Drew Ott). Once you start saying bowls are too risky to participate in based upon these extremely rare incidences of high-draft picks losing guaranteed money, it is a real slippery slope arguing why they should play at all once they have built up a certain profile. And that just ruins sports.

Most evidence indicates that over $75,000, more money does not equal more happiness.

It doesn't look like we will agree on this one, which is fine.
 
99topdawg said:
But Mo Washington was allowed to play...
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Exactly. That's how messed up things are, not just in college sports, but our whole society/culture. Mo Wash would NOT have suited up for any coach with even a minimum of "decency". I was telling people here in Orlando, today, "Be GLAD Scott Frost is no longer the coach at UCF. You see the kind of 'man' he is, now". Let's just say the strenuous nods of agreement were widespread throughout our group.
 
revkev73 said:
When there are hundreds of millions (and more) of dollars floating around, with jobs and careers on the line, AD offices, coaching, broadcasting, advertisers, boosters egos, NCAA et. al. with little accountability or interest in accountability, how can anyone be surprised by anything we hear, just the tip of the iceberg. The "bad" stuff never makes it to the daylight. Just the way it is, you are, what your money says you are. If everyone is flush in cash, why do anything...it isn't "hurting" anyone, the ends justify the means. Everyone is doing it. Kind of like drug user talk.
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That's how we get things like Holocausts and mass genocides. "It's no big deal, besides, they're just Jews/Armenians/Tutsi/gypsies/etc.".

OTOH, as the $$ went up, NCAA could have--and should have--developed an equitable approach for athletes to benefit without turning them into entitled, self-centered, athlete-only "students".
 
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CP87 said:
I would argue the difference between $1million and $0 is much more significant than the difference between $20 million and $4 million, and I don't think you could ever convince me otherwise (we might have to agree to disagree on that).

Jaylon Smith lost more than $10 million in guaranteed money due to his bowl-game injury. He is the other oft-cited example of how much these potential high-draft picks are risking. But again, even had the injury been career-ending, he would have pocketed millions of dollars. His injury was not career ending, and he just signed a $64 million extension.

Yes, ACL injuries are much more common than amputations, paralysis, or death. But run-of-the-mill joint injuries that occur in a bowl game and derail a career are almost unheard of. Everyone cites Butt (who had other injuries that occurred besides his bowl injury that were the real issue) and Smith (who will have career earnings that surpass $50 million). There have not been many others. And those injuries could have happened in draft-prep (like Simmons from MSU last year). Or against Illinois in mid-season (Drew Ott). Once you start saying bowls are too risky to participate in based upon these extremely rare incidences of high-draft picks losing guaranteed money, it is a real slippery slope arguing why they should play at all once they have built up a certain profile. And that just ruins sports.

Most evidence indicates that over $75,000, more money does not equal more happiness.

It doesn't look like we will agree on this one, which is fine.
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An even better example may be Ki-Jana Carter. All-world out of PSU, whom many said should have won the Heisman over Rashaan Salaam in 1994. Houses an 80-yarder on opening carry of Rose Bowl, goes out a hero. Third carry of first exhibition game, almost gets clotheslined, blows out a knee, never the same. After a 3-year NCAA career, it takes the NFL to get injured. And guess what? JoePa told him he should leave after that junior season! Record signing bonus, the guarantees may have "helped", but the fact he stuck around for 7 years pretty much says it all: he loved the game and kept trying to come back from subsequent injuries in addition to his first injury.
 
Robowe said:
Ask this guy? :)

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hawkeyebob62 said:
That's how we get things like Holocausts and mass genocides. "It's no big deal, besides, they're just Jews/Armenians/Tutsi/gypsies/etc.".

OTOH, as the $$ went up, NCAA could have--and should have--developed an equitable approach for athletes to benefit without turning them into entitled, self-centered, athlete-only "students".
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hawkeyebob62 said:
That's how we get things like Holocausts and mass genocides. "It's no big deal, besides, they're just Jews/Armenians/Tutsi/gypsies/etc.".

OTOH, as the $$ went up, NCAA could have--and should have--developed an equitable approach for athletes to benefit without turning them into entitled, self-centered, athlete-only "students".
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That would have called for visionary, ethical leadership.
 
hawkeyebob62 said:
"Amateur-ism" died when the US--with The Dream Team in 1992--went all "Soviet", selecting from pros vs. just using "amateur" players. And frankly, "appearance money" had been around on the track & field for at least a decade, though it was usually in the form of "travel expenses".
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travel expenses? top track and fielders like Michael Johnson and top sprinters would get 100K in Europe for a meet
 
uihawk82 said:
travel expenses? top track and fielders like Michael Johnson and top sprinters would get 100K in Europe for a meet
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Once the Dream Team came in, yeah. But before that, they called it "expenses" or some type of "fees", or whatever. Even Carl Lewis used to claim "endorsements". That, and he "never did steroids".
 
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