Browns coach goes for 2 after 1st td in 1st qtr-now 0-3

[PCHawk]

What are you talking about?

Do you not understand the difference between a PAT/conversion and a play from scrimmage?

Do you not understand the thread title?

Do you not understand the context when I said you always go for one point until you have to go for two?

Do you not understand the difference in choosing to go for 1 pt or 2 pts is different than deciding on 4th down to punt or kick a FG or go for the first down or go for the touchdown in goal-to-go?

What do you not understand about this?

I guess I don't. Why don't you explain to me the difference between passing up 3 points to go for a 4th and goal from the 4 and passing up 1 point to go for a td from the 2. The difference between being down 4 or 5 points is nowhere near the difference between being down 3 or 4 points.

One more thing. What is the benefit of waiting until you have to to go for 2? You may not ever even get another chance. If we kick a pat there, you absolutely have to score another touchdown to take the lead (or 2 field goals). Please explain to me. How is being down 5 points way worse than being down 4 points? How do you not think being down 3 points is way better than being down 4 points? The thought of waiting to try to score more points until "you have to" is a joke.

 

[trj]

I guess I don't. Why don't you explain to me the difference between passing up 3 points to go for a 4th and goal from the 4 and passing up 1 point to go for a td from the 2. The difference between being down 4 or 5 points is nowhere near the difference between being down 3 or 4 points.

One more thing. What is the benefit of waiting until you have to to go for 2? You may not ever even get another chance. If we kick a pat there, you absolutely have to score another touchdown to take the lead (or 2 field goals). Please explain to me. How is being down 5 points way worse than being down 4 points? How do you not think being down 3 points is way better than being down 4 points? The thought of waiting to try to score more points until "you have to" is a joke.

So are you just going for 2 all the time and bypassing the extra point altogether?

 

[DDThompson]

I guess I don't. Why don't you explain to me the difference between passing up 3 points to go for a 4th and goal from the 4 and passing up 1 point to go for a td from the 2. The difference between being down 4 or 5 points is nowhere near the difference between being down 3 or 4 points.

One more thing. What is the benefit of waiting until you have to to go for 2? You may not ever even get another chance. If we kick a pat there, you absolutely have to score another touchdown to take the lead (or 2 field goals). Please explain to me. How is being down 5 points way worse than being down 4 points? How do you not think being down 3 points is way better than being down 4 points? The thought of waiting to try to score more points until "you have to" is a joke.

So I still can’t tell if you are intentionally or unintentionally being obtuse.

You can’t answer simple questions and can’t grasp an elementary understanding of football: conversions and scrimmage plays.

I’m not wasting my time explaining that to you. If you are not willing or you are not capable of answering the questions then try Wikipedia.


But you’re saying you should never punt or attempt a FG and you should always go for a TD and you should always go for two.

 

[PCHawk]

So are you just going for 2 all the time and bypassing the extra point altogether?

I'm saying it depends on the score. Being down 3 is way better than being down 4. Being down 5 is slightly worse than being down 4. Converting a 2 pt conversion helps your odds a lot in that situation. Failing on it hurts your odds a little.

 

[PCHawk]

So I still can’t tell if you are intentionally or unintentionally being obtuse.

You can’t answer simple questions and can’t grasp an elementary understanding of football: conversions and scrimmage plays.

I’m not wasting my time explaining that to you. If you are not willing or you are not capable of answering the questions then try Wikipedia.


But you’re saying you should never punt or attempt a FG and you should always go for a TD and you should always go for two.

So you will waste all this time ridiculing my opinion but you wont waste a few seconds explaining your side. Fun convo dude.

 

[Robowe]

So are you just going for 2 all the time and bypassing the extra point altogether?

Gregg Williams is trying to change the mindset of the Browns, so he may go for 2 the rest of the year. That would explain him going for 2 and going for it on 4th down a lot this past Sunday.

https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports...rsity-against-kansas-city-chiefs/95-611372373

Also, Williams was plenty aggressive in his mindset, electing to go for three two-point conversions as well as three times on fourth-down situations, two of which resulted in new sets of downs for the Browns’ offense.

“The big thing was to be aggressive and to play aggressively,” Williams said. “Our guys responded in that way. We have to play better in some situations, but we played aggressively.”

 

[DDThompson]

So you will waste all this time ridiculing my opinion but you wont waste a few seconds explaining your side. Fun convo dude.

If I was ridiculing your opinion it wouldn’t be as waste of time.

Me: You don’t go for two until you have to

You (answering TRJ): I’m saying it depends on the score.

But you decided to change the conversation from PAT/conversions to line of scrimmage plays and put words in my mouth about disagreeing with KF going for a score on 4th down.

Then spent time pretending those situations are the same game situations when you know they aren’t.

And then hedged with your answer to TRJ because you are willing to take sure PAT points instead of possible points.

Which, by the way, is my statement.



So you just wanted to argue apparently; you did not want to have a conversation.

 

[uihawk82]

Gregg Williams is trying to change the mindset of the Browns, so he may go for 2 the rest of the year. That would explain him going for 2 and going for it on 4th down a lot this past Sunday.

https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports...rsity-against-kansas-city-chiefs/95-611372373

Also, Williams was plenty aggressive in his mindset, electing to go for three two-point conversions as well as three times on fourth-down situations, two of which resulted in new sets of downs for the Browns’ offense.

“The big thing was to be aggressive and to play aggressively,” Williams said. “Our guys responded in that way. We have to play better in some situations, but we played aggressively.”

You know the story of the high school or lower division college coach who almost always onside kicks and doesnt punt very often. Now this coach might also have better athletes.

The point I am making is it is fine to go on 4th down depending on the score, time of game, scrimmage yard line, how your team is playing and blocking, and if you have a few really high % plays, etc.

Remember only a few years ago or more when hawk fans were rightly getting pissed at KF for punting from the 33 or 35 yard line of the opponent. I think KF saw other coaches doing it to him and beating him. That is a great time depending on circumstances because if you gain to the 30 but dont get the first down it is not much different than a punt to the end zone or the 15 yard line.

 

[Robowe]

You know the story of the high school or lower division college coach who almost always onside kicks and doesnt punt very often. Now this coach might also have better athletes.

The point I am making is it is fine to go on 4th down depending on the score, time of game, scrimmage yard line, how your team is playing and blocking, and if you have a few really high % plays, etc.

Remember only a few years ago or more when hawk fans were rightly getting pissed at KF for punting from the 33 or 35 yard line of the opponent. I think KF saw other coaches doing it to him and beating him. That is a great time depending on circumstances because if you gain to the 30 but dont get the first down it is not much different than a punt to the end zone or the 15 yard line.

Yep, situation drives the decision most times. My point is, there are times when other factors (bad kicking game, a change in a team's mindset) can come into play. I don't believe that was the case for Iowa this past Saturday.

 

[PCHawk]

If I was ridiculing your opinion it wouldn’t be as waste of time.

Me: You don’t go for two until you have to

You (answering TRJ): I’m saying it depends on the score.

But you decided to change the conversation from PAT/conversions to line of scrimmage plays and put words in my mouth about disagreeing with KF going for a score on 4th down.

Then spent time pretending those situations are the same game situations when you know they aren’t.

And then hedged with your answer to TRJ because you are willing to take sure PAT points instead of possible points.

Which, by the way, is my statement.



So you just wanted to argue apparently; you did not want to have a conversation.

I'll try to explain my stance again. There has always been a phrase in football that drives me nuts. "Taking the points". Now there is a new one called "chasing the points". Taking the points is when you choose to go for the "sure thing" (like kicking a field goal or PAT). Chasing points is when you pass up "sure points" and risk trying to get more points.

Now you say there is a difference between a scrimmage play and a 2 pt conversion. But both of Kirk's decisions were an attempt to chase points. If either the 4th down or the 2 point conversion fail, it lowers our chances to win. But if they succeed, they raise our chances to win. It's the coaches job to calculate those odds on the spot and decide if the risk is worth the reward.

The 4th down call (that no one seems to have a problem with) would have crippled our chances to win and was a lower chance of success. But if it succeeds, it greatly improves your chances of winning over the "take the points" route. I think the risk was worth the reward.

The 2 point conversion only lowered our chances a little bit by failing, but it would have improved them quite a bit if we convert. Like I've said already, the difference between being down 4 points or 5 isn't that big of deal. But the difference between 3 and 4 points is a huge deal. I think that was even more worth the risk than the 4th down attempt.

People always say to wait until you have to before you "chase points". That's absurd because you don't even know if you will get another chance. If Kirk kicks the PAT and we are still down 4 at the end of the game, then it ends with us in field goal range turning it over on downs (that's a pretty damn good possibility) I would have been pretty annoyed. I would have said "Kirk was smart enough to pass up the field goal because he knew how bad we needed a td, but then he's not smart enough to try to get us down 3 because he's too scared of going down 5?" It would have made no sense.

And let's not forget, when we are down 4 points in the second half to a team we haven't stopped all night, and we are getting ready to give them the ball back, we dont have a very good chance of winning right then anyway. Kirk's decision gave us the best chance to win. Failing at the play is what hurt our chances. Just like failing at the 4th down attempt would have all but ended the game. Down 11 there would have been all but impossible to come back from.

 

[PCHawk]

When you decide to chase points, there are 3 things you have to calculate before you can decide risk vs reward. 1 is odds of the play succeeding. 2 is how bad it will hurt you if it fails. 3 is how much it will help you if it succeeds. The people who say not to chase points until you have to don't care about number 3 for some reason, and number 3 is a pretty important piece of the puzzle.