BJ Armstrong on dinner he had with Michael Jordan - Kobe Bryant

Fortunately for me I was able to watch both Jordan, Kobe and Lebron play. With the documentary show now everyone is talking about whether Jordan is the best or is Lebron better. Its my opinion that Lebron isn't even in the top three. With Jordan, Kobe, and Wilt being top three for me

Jordan and Kobe's competitiveness put them in a category all by themselves. That isn't a knock on Lebron, some guys are just wired differently and I think part of it was when they played. The 80's, 90, and 00's are a way different style of basketball and with social media the world is a much different place.

For Jordan and Kobe I don't think social media would have made a difference with them because they were so focused on winning and if bad posts got out about how they treated guys at practice they wouldn't have cared because they knew what it takes.

From my standpoint that is where Lebron is different he is part of social media with his tweets and is more conscious of what the outside is saying about him.

For Jordan and Kobe they were driving the bus and if you weren't all in then you could get off anytime or they would kick you off and not miss a beat.
 
A little slightly off-topic but with the documentary on I am getting a ton of old NBA games etc coming up on my youtube recommendations and I forgot how good Jordan was in his brief stint with the Wizards and that was after being done for a few years. Early in the 2001 season he was a legitimate MVP candidate until I believe some injuries hampered him and he missed some games then looking at 2003 his last year he played in all 82 games, just unbelievable for a guy that turned 40 that year.

One of the comments on one of the games was comparing Jordan to Lebron and they brought up the fact that even though in the later years Jordan had lost a step and wasn't as explosive he tailored his game and became one of the best mid range shooters the game has seen. Their comment was what has Lebron done to improve his game or add something. Thinking about that the only thing I can think of is besides just adding muscle mass Lebron's game is basically the same as it has always been at least from my opinion.

For what its worth next to the sky hook Jordan's fade away is easily the next most unstoppable move ever in my opinion.
 
I too am of the fortunate age to have watched the majority of the greatest players in their prime, sans Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell.

Everybody has their opinion on how they would rank the NBA players, and that's fine. It's purely subjective. The media went into a tizzy recently when Barkley didn't name Lebron in his top 5, but, sheesh, you have to leave someone out. No matter how you rank them, it will always be controversial. You can't have 10 players in your top 5.

Lebron is a amazing athlete. What he has done for a man his size is truly astonishing. To put it in perspective, he's almost the exact height and weight as Karl Malone. He's one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

That said, IMO, he's a notch or several notches below Jordan in terms of GOAT. First, Lebron is not just an average defender, he's a poor defender. Someone with his athletic ability should dominate on that end, and, except for the occasional flash, he treats defense as an afterthought. Second, he doesn't have that inner drive and intensity that made Jordan untouchable. In fairness, no one else does either.

Jordan combined other-worldly athleticism with ultra-competitive intensity like no other before or since, and he brought it consistently on both ends. Kobe had some of the same traits, however - and, I'm saying this as a lifelong Lakers fan - a lot of his traits seemed manufactured for lack of a better word. Kobe was a great player and had an unbelievable work ethic, but he wasn't quite the natural ultra-intense athlete that Jordan was.
 
#1DieHardHawk said:
I too am of the fortunate age to have watched the majority of the greatest players in their prime, sans Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell.

Everybody has their opinion on how they would rank the NBA players, and that's fine. It's purely subjective. The media went into a tizzy recently when Barkley didn't name Lebron in his top 5, but, sheesh, you have to leave someone out. No matter how you rank them, it will always be controversial. You can't have 10 players in your top 5.

Lebron is a amazing athlete. What he has done for a man his size is truly astonishing. To put it in perspective, he's almost the exact height and weight as Karl Malone. He's one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

That said, IMO, he's a notch or several notches below Jordan in terms of GOAT. First, Lebron is not just an average defender, he's a poor defender. Someone with his athletic ability should dominate on that end, and, except for the occasional flash, he treats defense as an afterthought. Second, he doesn't have that inner drive and intensity that made Jordan untouchable. In fairness, no one else does either.

Jordan combined other-worldly athleticism with ultra-competitive intensity like no other before or since, and he brought it consistently on both ends. Kobe had some of the same traits, however - and, I'm saying this as a lifelong Lakers fan - a lot of his traits seemed manufactured for lack of a better word. Kobe was a great player and had an unbelievable work ethic, but he wasn't quite the natural ultra-intense athlete that Jordan was.
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Agree about Kobe and some of his traits being manufactured and I think some of that is from his relationship with Michael and how he was asking MJ for advice on how to get better.

I also think if you go back and ask Kobe's teammates about him as a guy and what he was like I think it would be far more positive than what Jordan's teammates thought and currently think of him. Jordan was an A-hole but for him that is what he believed helped him and his team get over the edge.

Looking at it from a personality trait some guys just are not comfortable being like that and I think to a point Kobe was not like that and not many other people who have played have been.

One thing that is glaring from the documentary as well as interviews and items that have been going around for years is most guys are able to turn that competitiveness on and off, Jordan could not or would not. I'm sure at home Jordan was a total prick if you folded more laundry than him, that was just the way he is
 
Cool article nice find. Thanks for posting that. You guys watch Jordans 'Last Dance"? episode 7 last night may as well been the BJ episode. That was pretty cool seeing him on there so much.
 
kameltoez102 said:
Agree about Kobe and some of his traits being manufactured and I think some of that is from his relationship with Michael and how he was asking MJ for advice on how to get better.

I also think if you go back and ask Kobe's teammates about him as a guy and what he was like I think it would be far more positive than what Jordan's teammates thought and currently think of him. Jordan was an A-hole but for him that is what he believed helped him and his team get over the edge.

Looking at it from a personality trait some guys just are not comfortable being like that and I think to a point Kobe was not like that and not many other people who have played have been.

One thing that is glaring from the documentary as well as interviews and items that have been going around for years is most guys are able to turn that competitiveness on and off, Jordan could not or would not. I'm sure at home Jordan was a total prick if you folded more laundry than him, that was just the way he is
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There were two distinct Kobe Bryants.

Early on, he wasn't popular with his teammates at all. The knock on him - a lot of which was probably true - was that he was an entitled spoiled "me first" guy that was more focused on personal stats and glory than on team success. He wasn't the in-your-face jerk at times like Jordan could be, but he didn't endear himself at all to his coaches and teammates.

Late in his career, probably in part due to raising a family, Kobe became more mature and seemed to relish in more of a mentor/leader role. By that point, he became much more popular with his teammates and around the league. To his credit, he evolved in a positive way. Not a lot of athletes do that to that degree.
 
Armstrong gave a great interview on Sports Center after the episodes. He displayed the perfect blend of "yes, I got one on Jordan and the Bulls," while also acknowledging that he got paid back for it. Lots of players felt Jordan's revenge, but not many felt the sense of accomplishment Armstrong had.
 
Hawknigh said:
Armstrong gave a great interview on Sports Center after the episodes. He displayed the perfect blend of "yes, I got one on Jordan and the Bulls," while also acknowledging that he got paid back for it. Lots of players felt Jordan's revenge, but not many felt the sense of accomplishment Armstrong had.
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Yeah. He was in a unique position. BJ having been a key cog in the first 3 peat. Was as close to Jordan as any teammate had been pretty much. Then on another team at that point after Jordan had came back to finish the 95 season. Remember BJ didn't leave the Bulls on his own accord. They left him unprotected in the expansion draft and Toronto took him with the first pick and traded him to GS right away. BJ started to have his knee issues and was never the same player again then either. He was an absolute shell of himself in Charlotte so for him to have a great 2nd half and hit some big shots and the big shot of that game to beat them was a pretty cool thing for him. Even though everybody knew they were outmatched as far as actually winning the series goes.
 
#1DieHardHawk said:
I too am of the fortunate age to have watched the majority of the greatest players in their prime, sans Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell.

Everybody has their opinion on how they would rank the NBA players, and that's fine. It's purely subjective. The media went into a tizzy recently when Barkley didn't name Lebron in his top 5, but, sheesh, you have to leave someone out. No matter how you rank them, it will always be controversial. You can't have 10 players in your top 5.

Lebron is a amazing athlete. What he has done for a man his size is truly astonishing. To put it in perspective, he's almost the exact height and weight as Karl Malone. He's one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

That said, IMO, he's a notch or several notches below Jordan in terms of GOAT. First, Lebron is not just an average defender, he's a poor defender. Someone with his athletic ability should dominate on that end, and, except for the occasional flash, he treats defense as an afterthought. Second, he doesn't have that inner drive and intensity that made Jordan untouchable. In fairness, no one else does either.

Jordan combined other-worldly athleticism with ultra-competitive intensity like no other before or since, and he brought it consistently on both ends. Kobe had some of the same traits, however - and, I'm saying this as a lifelong Lakers fan - a lot of his traits seemed manufactured for lack of a better word. Kobe was a great player and had an unbelievable work ethic, but he wasn't quite the natural ultra-intense athlete that Jordan was.
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In my lifetime two athletes stand out alone in terms of ruthless will to win, complete refusal to lose, hating losing more than enjoying winning, and relishing the act of ripping out their opponent's heart.

Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods.

I could throw Arnold Schwarzenegger in there as well, but professional bodybuilding is judged, and Arnold knew how to work judges. Actually, if you are familiar with bodybuilding history, Arnold may have been better even than Michael or Tiger at crushing the competitive will of his opponent's. He drove guys to early retirement, even early death.

Muhammad Ali lost some of his luster when Frazier beat him, then pushed him to the limit two other times. But even when Frazier beat Ali, and beat the crap out of Ali, Muhammad somehow gained the adulation of the public for being able to withstand the punishment more than Frazier gained for administering it. Frazier never forgave or forgot, but only one fighter could be known as "the greatest".
 
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Northside Hawk said:
In my lifetime two athletes stand out alone in terms of ruthless will to win, complete refusal to lose, hating losing more than enjoying winning, and relishing the act of ripping out their opponent's heart.

Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods.

I could throw Arnold Schwarzenegger in there as well, but professional bodybuilding is judged, and Arnold knew how to work judges. Actually, if you are familiar with bodybuilding history, Arnold may have been better even than Michael or Tiger at crushing the competitive will of his opponent's. He drove guys to early retirement, even early death.

Muhammad Ali lost some of his luster when Frazier beat him, then pushed him to the limit two other times. But even when Frazier beat Ali, and beat the crap out of Ali, Muhammad somehow gained the adulation of the public for being able to withstand the punishment more than Frazier gained for administering it. Frazier never forgave or forgot, but only one fighter could be known as "the greatest".
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Interesting take on Arnold. Not sure I would have thought about him. The Tiger analogy is a good one.

In terms of hatred of losing and sheer will to dominate and win, we'd have to include Magic and Bird in that conversation. Neither was a naturally gifted athlete but the hatred of losing is what they thought of 24 hours a day, and they were obsessively driven by it.

If we think outside the box, I'd mention Alberto Tomba in skiing and Gary Kasparov in chess. And, of course, there's Dan Gable, one of the most intensely driven people to ever participate in any sport.
 
#1DieHardHawk said:
Interesting take on Arnold. Not sure I would have thought about him. The Tiger analogy is a good one.

In terms of hatred of losing and sheer will to dominate and win, we'd have to include Magic and Bird in that conversation. Neither was a naturally gifted athlete but the hatred of losing is what they thought of 24 hours a day, and they were obsessively driven by it.

If we think outside the box, I'd mention Alberto Tomba in skiing and Gary Kasparov in chess. And, of course, there's Dan Gable, one of the most intensely driven people to ever participate in any sport.
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All great athletes and competitors, but Eddy Merckx is definitely the most dominant athlete in any sport. He had total and utter control of what I'd say is the most physically demanding sport in the world, for a long, long time. In today's road cycling environment everyone is a specialist. Some guys sprint, some guys trial, some climb, and some can descend, but none do it all. Merckx did. The things he put his body and mind through are astounding.
 
#1DieHardHawk said:
I too am of the fortunate age to have watched the majority of the greatest players in their prime, sans Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell.

Everybody has their opinion on how they would rank the NBA players, and that's fine. It's purely subjective. The media went into a tizzy recently when Barkley didn't name Lebron in his top 5, but, sheesh, you have to leave someone out. No matter how you rank them, it will always be controversial. You can't have 10 players in your top 5.

Lebron is a amazing athlete. What he has done for a man his size is truly astonishing. To put it in perspective, he's almost the exact height and weight as Karl Malone. He's one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

That said, IMO, he's a notch or several notches below Jordan in terms of GOAT. First, Lebron is not just an average defender, he's a poor defender. Someone with his athletic ability should dominate on that end, and, except for the occasional flash, he treats defense as an afterthought. Second, he doesn't have that inner drive and intensity that made Jordan untouchable. In fairness, no one else does either.

Jordan combined other-worldly athleticism with ultra-competitive intensity like no other before or since, and he brought it consistently on both ends. Kobe had some of the same traits, however - and, I'm saying this as a lifelong Lakers fan - a lot of his traits seemed manufactured for lack of a better word. Kobe was a great player and had an unbelievable work ethic, but he wasn't quite the natural ultra-intense athlete that Jordan was.
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This is just not true. He took the past few seasons prior to this current season off, so lazy the past few seasons? I'll agree to that, but a "poor defender" overall? Just no. He's had a resurgence this past year on defense actually. I've linked a good article that dives into it.

And previously, LeBron was NBA All-Defensive 1st team from 2009-2013 and 2nd team in 2014. That's a huge factor into why he won 4 league MVP's during that same stretch. Does he have that same lock-down defensive mentality that he used to? No, he's starting to get up there in age and a lot of it is to preserve himself for the offensive end. Does he have that inner drive like Jordan did? Absolutely not. But to claim he's a "poor defender" is way off.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...-lakers-continue-to-shut-down-the-entire-nba/
 
Fryowa said:
All great athletes and competitors, but Eddy Merckx is definitely the most dominant athlete in any sport. He had total and utter control of what I'd say is the most physically demanding sport in the world, for a long, long time. In today's road cycling environment everyone is a specialist. Some guys sprint, some guys trial, some climb, and some can descend, but none do it all. Merckx did. The things he put his body and mind through are astounding.
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I'm sure he was dominant. Not really a sport that I'm familiar with, so I'm sure there are several more out there.

Some are simply just really good (examples would be Shaun White and Mario Andretti). I was just focusing on the guys off the top of my head who had that extreme willpower to go along with their abilities.
 
GoHawks24 said:
This is just not true. He took the past few seasons prior to this current season off, so lazy the past few seasons? I'll agree to that, but a "poor defender" overall? Just no. He's had a resurgence this past year on defense actually. I've linked a good article that dives into it.

And previously, LeBron was NBA All-Defensive 1st team from 2009-2013 and 2nd team in 2014. That's a huge factor into why he won 4 league MVP's during that same stretch. Does he have that same lock-down defensive mentality that he used to? No, he's starting to get up there in age and a lot of it is to preserve himself for the offensive end. Does he have that inner drive like Jordan did? Absolutely not. But to claim he's a "poor defender" is way off.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/...-lakers-continue-to-shut-down-the-entire-nba/
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Granted, poor is probably too strong of a word. I've watched LeBron play over his whole career and what I see is a guy that has the ability but often decides not to give the effort. You see it in spots, especially with blocking shots from behind, but I've seen many games where he just goes through the motions on D.

Again, my opinion, but I've heard others levy that criticism as well. In any case, he's not even in the same universe as Jordan as a defensive player. Jordan would flat out embarrass players at times, then eat their lunch afterwards.

The All-NBA defensive recognition has been criticized for years for being more about popularity and name recognition. That's not to say that those guys aren't good defenders and don't deserve it. Most definitely do, but there have always been question marks about some of the stars named in lieu of lesser known players that get left off. Abdul-Jabbar was an 11-time member, and, frankly, that's absurd. Kareem abhorred defense, and I say that as a big Kareem fan growing up. In fact, his trade to L.A. is how I became a Laker fan back in the day.
 
Fryowa said:
All great athletes and competitors, but Eddy Merckx is definitely the most dominant athlete in any sport. He had total and utter control of what I'd say is the most physically demanding sport in the world, for a long, long time. In today's road cycling environment everyone is a specialist. Some guys sprint, some guys trial, some climb, and some can descend, but none do it all. Merckx did. The things he put his body and mind through are astounding.
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I've said, and mentioned on these boards that the Tour de France is the most demanding sporting event there is.

When those guys are climbing thirty degree inclines at high altitudes against world class competition it makes me exhausted just watching.
 
#1DieHardHawk said:
I'm sure he was dominant. Not really a sport that I'm familiar with, so I'm sure there are several more out there.

Some are simply just really good (examples would be Shaun White and Mario Andretti). I was just focusing on the guys off the top of my head who had that extreme willpower to go along with their abilities.
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Another athlete to throw in is Steve Prefontaine.

But I never emulated his running style, whether I high school or running 5k's in my forties. I always started out moderate and saved enough for a finishing kick.

Steve liked to set a blistering pace then gut his way to the finish.

But Steve helped popularize running in this country, and was also on the ground floor of what would eventually become the Nike empire. Bill Bowerman was his coach and Phil Knight was a college teammate.
 
Fryowa said:
That guy had probably the best set of lungs in the country but he died of not being able to breathe. Irony is almost too absurd to be real sometimes.
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Kind of like Stephen King writing a novel about a demonically possessed automobile, then being laid up for six months from getting hit by a car walking near his home.
 
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