Caven, you are right that the current law for a championship game would require a 4 division exemption since while the TBD game doesn't violate by-law 17.9.5.1, the championship game would violate by-law 17.9.5.2(c) as it is currently written. I think the law could be amended to allow for 4 divisions, but your rotating pods idea is very smart since it would accomplish a similar preferred rotation of schedule (no one is going 8 years between seeing Big Ten opponents coming to town) but also fits into the current guideline for a championship game.
Big Ten Expansion: Four by Four???
- Thread starter JonDMiller
- Start date
DuffMan
Well-Known Member
To me it just doesnt look neat and clean. Football is a great game, you don't need to add gimicks. Give me good teams, in good games, that I can easily follow. I don't want a complicated schedule. I don't want a complicated 4 team playoff. I wan't two divisions of 7-8 teams and I want the winners of those divisions to play in a conference title game.
MIhawk
Well-Known Member
I'm going to throw my proposal up one more time in the hope that someone will comment on it; it got buried in a flurry of quick responses earlier in the thread.
the post is long, and on the surface the scheme is slightly complicated, but if you take a little time to digest, I think it works pretty well and meets most of the things people want including protecting rivalries, and rotating threw all member of the conference as quickly as possible via a 'rotating pod system'
I'm using the premise that the B10 adds the 5 teams thrown out previously:
syracuse/rutgers/Pitt/Mizzou/ Nebbie
For the people talking about 2 X 8 team divisions, the problem with that is you would be locked into playing the other seven in your division every year, then if you played 9 conference games a year, 2 from the other division-- that means if you're Iowa that Michigan is only on your schedule 2 times every 8 years and only comes to your stadium once. Lots of people would find that not ideal.
The 4 X 4 alignment makes it a little more flexible. I would group them into 'PODS' like this:
East
PSU, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse
Central
Mich, MSU, OSU, Indiana
North
Minnie, Wisky, Iowa, NW
West (looks like the weakest Pod on paper, but always paired w/ one of the other 3 as you'll see below)
Nebbie, Mizzou, Illini, Purdue
Then give each team a permanent rival in each of the other 3 divisions that they will play every year. This way each school will have 6 teams it plays EVERY YEAR- it's pod foes and it's 3 permanent rivals. The other 3 games it plays rotate every 2 years as you pair pods to make a division. Here's what I came up with for permanent protected intra-pod rivals:
PSU-- tOSU, Iowa, Nebraska (definitely on of the hardest if not THE hardest currently
Pitt-- Michigan, Wisconsin, Mizzou
Rutgers--MSU, Minnesota, Illini
Syracuse-- Indiana, NW, Purdue (pretty bland, but will still have good schedules)
Michigan-- Pitt, MN, Neb (struggled w/ giving them Minnie, they have a rivalry game)
MSU--Rutgers, Iowa, Missouri (Iowa rivalry has been fairly even recently)
tOSU-- PSU, Wisky, Illini (fairly tough, all these teams have given them some trouble)
Indiana-- Syracuse, NW, Purdue
Iowa-- PSU, MSU, Nebraska (get the future border war + PSU)
Wisky-- Pitt, tOSU, Missouri
NW-- Syracuse, Indiana, Illinois
MN-- Rutgers, Michigan, Purdue (gave them Michigan for little brown jug)
Neb-- PSU, MI, Iowa (obvious game vs Iowa, have a legitmate rivalry w/ PSU)
Missouri-- Pitt, MSU, Wisky
Illini--Rutgers, tOSU, NW
Purdue-- Syracuse, Indiana, MN
So as another poster put it you play all 3 in your division + another division + your remaining 2 protected rivals for a total of 9 conference games. You would rotate thru all the teams in the conference every 6 years.
So Iowa's rotation could look like this:
year 1 & 2 vs the East
PSU/Pitt/Rutgers/Syracuse/MSU/Wisky/NW/Minnie/Nebbie
The East/North winner would play the Central/West winner in conf. title game
year 3 and 4 vs the Central
PSU/Mich/MSU/tOSU/Indiana/Wisky/NW/Minnie/Nebbie
The North/Central Winner would play the East/West winner
year 5 and 6 vs the West
PSU/MSU/Wisky/NW/Minnie/Nebbie/Mizzou/Illini/Purdue
the North/West winner vs the East/Central winner for the title
So looking at my proposed format, the only rivalry that I know of that would get broken up is PSU vs MSU for the land grant trophy (and is that REALLY considered a big rivalry?)[ok just looked it up, I found 17 named rivalry/ trophy games between teams in this 16 team conference; my alignment scheme would preserve all but 2 on an every year basis-- the 2 are the Land Grant Trophy above and the 'Governor's Victory Bell game between PSU and MN, both of these 'rivalries' have only been around since 1993.
the post is long, and on the surface the scheme is slightly complicated, but if you take a little time to digest, I think it works pretty well and meets most of the things people want including protecting rivalries, and rotating threw all member of the conference as quickly as possible via a 'rotating pod system'
I'm using the premise that the B10 adds the 5 teams thrown out previously:
syracuse/rutgers/Pitt/Mizzou/ Nebbie
For the people talking about 2 X 8 team divisions, the problem with that is you would be locked into playing the other seven in your division every year, then if you played 9 conference games a year, 2 from the other division-- that means if you're Iowa that Michigan is only on your schedule 2 times every 8 years and only comes to your stadium once. Lots of people would find that not ideal.
The 4 X 4 alignment makes it a little more flexible. I would group them into 'PODS' like this:
East
PSU, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse
Central
Mich, MSU, OSU, Indiana
North
Minnie, Wisky, Iowa, NW
West (looks like the weakest Pod on paper, but always paired w/ one of the other 3 as you'll see below)
Nebbie, Mizzou, Illini, Purdue
Then give each team a permanent rival in each of the other 3 divisions that they will play every year. This way each school will have 6 teams it plays EVERY YEAR- it's pod foes and it's 3 permanent rivals. The other 3 games it plays rotate every 2 years as you pair pods to make a division. Here's what I came up with for permanent protected intra-pod rivals:
PSU-- tOSU, Iowa, Nebraska (definitely on of the hardest if not THE hardest currently
Pitt-- Michigan, Wisconsin, Mizzou
Rutgers--MSU, Minnesota, Illini
Syracuse-- Indiana, NW, Purdue (pretty bland, but will still have good schedules)
Michigan-- Pitt, MN, Neb (struggled w/ giving them Minnie, they have a rivalry game)
MSU--Rutgers, Iowa, Missouri (Iowa rivalry has been fairly even recently)
tOSU-- PSU, Wisky, Illini (fairly tough, all these teams have given them some trouble)
Indiana-- Syracuse, NW, Purdue
Iowa-- PSU, MSU, Nebraska (get the future border war + PSU)
Wisky-- Pitt, tOSU, Missouri
NW-- Syracuse, Indiana, Illinois
MN-- Rutgers, Michigan, Purdue (gave them Michigan for little brown jug)
Neb-- PSU, MI, Iowa (obvious game vs Iowa, have a legitmate rivalry w/ PSU)
Missouri-- Pitt, MSU, Wisky
Illini--Rutgers, tOSU, NW
Purdue-- Syracuse, Indiana, MN
So as another poster put it you play all 3 in your division + another division + your remaining 2 protected rivals for a total of 9 conference games. You would rotate thru all the teams in the conference every 6 years.
So Iowa's rotation could look like this:
year 1 & 2 vs the East
PSU/Pitt/Rutgers/Syracuse/MSU/Wisky/NW/Minnie/Nebbie
The East/North winner would play the Central/West winner in conf. title game
year 3 and 4 vs the Central
PSU/Mich/MSU/tOSU/Indiana/Wisky/NW/Minnie/Nebbie
The North/Central Winner would play the East/West winner
year 5 and 6 vs the West
PSU/MSU/Wisky/NW/Minnie/Nebbie/Mizzou/Illini/Purdue
the North/West winner vs the East/Central winner for the title
So looking at my proposed format, the only rivalry that I know of that would get broken up is PSU vs MSU for the land grant trophy (and is that REALLY considered a big rivalry?)[ok just looked it up, I found 17 named rivalry/ trophy games between teams in this 16 team conference; my alignment scheme would preserve all but 2 on an every year basis-- the 2 are the Land Grant Trophy above and the 'Governor's Victory Bell game between PSU and MN, both of these 'rivalries' have only been around since 1993.
MIHawk, I like your idea. I think 4 divisions or rotating pods to form 2 divisions are two systems for 16 teams that are significantly better than 2 straight divisions of 8 teams. The only thing I like about the 4 divisions a little better is the possibility of designing a semi-final game with the last regular season game.
guffus
Well-Known Member
You can easily have 4 divisions and you only need one post-season game. And you can do it with only 8 conference games, all scheduled in advance. Its so easy its scary.
Every year just have all the teams in one division play all the teams in one other division. Then group the 2 divisions that played each other that year into one bracket. The best team in each bracket goes to the championship game. There is no need for semi-finals. There is no need for rotating pods.
Every year just have all the teams in one division play all the teams in one other division. Then group the 2 divisions that played each other that year into one bracket. The best team in each bracket goes to the championship game. There is no need for semi-finals. There is no need for rotating pods.
guffus
Well-Known Member
I would split up the 4 divisions and schedule this way:
East
PSU, Pitt, Rut, SYR
North
Mich, MSU, OSU, PUR
South
Indy, ILL, NW, Mo
West
Wisc, Minn, IA, NEB
Schedule would work like this:
8 conference games.
4 home games. 4 away games.
3 of the 8 games will be against teams from same division. The team will play these same 3 teams every year.
4 of the 8 games will be against all 4 teams from one other division. The other division that the team plays will change every year. So that every team will have played every other team (and division) in the conference at least 2 times every 6 years.
1 game will be against a protected rival that is not in the same division, unless that is the year the team plays its protected rival's divsion, then they will play a random substitute*.
List of protected rivals that will play every year because they are different divisions.
Neb-Mo
Minn-Mich
PUR-INDY
PSU-MSU
WISC-NW (or WISC-ILL)
IA-ILL (or IA-NW)
OSU - PITT
RUT - Ransom Substitute*
SYR - Random Substitute*
*The way the divisions and rotations are set up, there will always be years when at least 2 teams need a random substitute. For example, the years that North plays South, Purdue & Indy will play each other's divsion, so they will need a substitute for their rival game. So for example, Purdue could play Rutgers that year and Indy could play SYR.
East
PSU, Pitt, Rut, SYR
North
Mich, MSU, OSU, PUR
South
Indy, ILL, NW, Mo
West
Wisc, Minn, IA, NEB
Schedule would work like this:
8 conference games.
4 home games. 4 away games.
3 of the 8 games will be against teams from same division. The team will play these same 3 teams every year.
4 of the 8 games will be against all 4 teams from one other division. The other division that the team plays will change every year. So that every team will have played every other team (and division) in the conference at least 2 times every 6 years.
1 game will be against a protected rival that is not in the same division, unless that is the year the team plays its protected rival's divsion, then they will play a random substitute*.
List of protected rivals that will play every year because they are different divisions.
Neb-Mo
Minn-Mich
PUR-INDY
PSU-MSU
WISC-NW (or WISC-ILL)
IA-ILL (or IA-NW)
OSU - PITT
RUT - Ransom Substitute*
SYR - Random Substitute*
*The way the divisions and rotations are set up, there will always be years when at least 2 teams need a random substitute. For example, the years that North plays South, Purdue & Indy will play each other's divsion, so they will need a substitute for their rival game. So for example, Purdue could play Rutgers that year and Indy could play SYR.
Iowa and Illinois/NW are not rivals in Football. Not sure where you are getting that. One would think that Minny/Wisky would be our protected rivalries.
If you are talking basketball.....um I am not sure if we have a true rivalry with anyone in our conference...historically Illy/Minny...but its been awhile.
guffus
Well-Known Member
Under my scenerio, IA, Minn, and Wisc were all in the same division. So they are already playing each other every year as a divisional opponent. The protected rival game is for a special rival that is not your same division.
EastLosRandy
Well-Known Member
This would all be better with a 9 game schedule. And I think the rotating-pods-that-form-eight-team-divisions plan makes the most out of a 16 team conference.
Suppose Iowa is in Pod1. Iowa plays all three rivals in Pod1 every year. Ideally: Neb, Minn, Wisc.
For two years Pod1 and Pod2 link up to form an eight-team-division, with the other division being Pod3 and Pod 4. Then the next two years, Pod1 links with Pod3 while Pod2 links with Pod4. Each eight-team division plays a round robin, thus Iowa will end up playing teams from Pod2 and Pod3 twice each out of every four years.
In addition to those seven division games every year, each team plays two games per year from the Pod they never share a division with. (Pod1 and Pod4, Pod2 and Pod3) With a nine-game schedule, therefore, you play everyone in the other three pods twice out of every four years. That might be regular enough for fans to feel like we're still in the same conference with teams like Mich, OSU, and PSU.
Then there's the championship game, of course. Each division will have a champion, and the division champions square off on a neutral field on the first Saturday in December for the Big 16 championship. (The Drum may be the ideal spot due to its centrality and retractable roof.) No need at all for a four-team playoff.
You assign teams to pods based mostly on rivalries. Who goes exactly where depends on who joins, but you would need OSU-Mich in the same pod, for example. Balancing the power of the pods (tricky as programs rise and fall and go through cycles) will be less important because of the shuffling of the pods into different divisions. This shuffling also increases the odds that the championship game will not be a rematch from the regular season.
Suppose Iowa is in Pod1. Iowa plays all three rivals in Pod1 every year. Ideally: Neb, Minn, Wisc.
For two years Pod1 and Pod2 link up to form an eight-team-division, with the other division being Pod3 and Pod 4. Then the next two years, Pod1 links with Pod3 while Pod2 links with Pod4. Each eight-team division plays a round robin, thus Iowa will end up playing teams from Pod2 and Pod3 twice each out of every four years.
In addition to those seven division games every year, each team plays two games per year from the Pod they never share a division with. (Pod1 and Pod4, Pod2 and Pod3) With a nine-game schedule, therefore, you play everyone in the other three pods twice out of every four years. That might be regular enough for fans to feel like we're still in the same conference with teams like Mich, OSU, and PSU.
Then there's the championship game, of course. Each division will have a champion, and the division champions square off on a neutral field on the first Saturday in December for the Big 16 championship. (The Drum may be the ideal spot due to its centrality and retractable roof.) No need at all for a four-team playoff.
You assign teams to pods based mostly on rivalries. Who goes exactly where depends on who joins, but you would need OSU-Mich in the same pod, for example. Balancing the power of the pods (tricky as programs rise and fall and go through cycles) will be less important because of the shuffling of the pods into different divisions. This shuffling also increases the odds that the championship game will not be a rematch from the regular season.
