Big Men in Portal

NorthKCHawk

Well-Known Member
Then how would you change it?

Is it up to you to decide how much an athlete should be paid? Based on what exactly?

What if I told you that what you do for a living isn’t worth what you get paid right now, and that I decided that arbitrarily? And if I told you that once you started somewhere you couldn’t leave for better pay or a better fit, strictly for my own enjoyment when I don’t even know you? Friggin ludicrous.

Again, you’ve never answered a question without dodging…how would you respond to a university that kicked a programming student out for doing some coding on the side and making money with his talents? Or how about an electrical engineer who was so bright that he got paid to work on a project for GE while still going to school? Would you kick that kid out? Hell no. He’d be celebrated.

But you want kids you’ve never met to play a sport strictly for your enjoyment, and never to be allowed to change schools, (again—strictly for your nostalgia and enjoyment), and never to be able to earn a dime beyond a college scholarship. Yeeeaaahhh…that’s not ridiculous or anything.

Do there have to be rules on how much money a kid can make? Because some 60 year old dude ten states away who’s never met that kid says so?
I have ducked nothing and I am not 60 and once again you are unable to make a cogent point without being a dick and making it personal.

If I were the NCAA I would first return the portal back to a 1 year sit out. It is the only thing they really can do to stem this lunacy in the short term. It would take away the incentive for these collectives to poach talent from other teams knowing they won't see the kid on the floor/field for 2 years. I don't like this in the long term, and I think kids should be able to freely transfer, but the confluence of NIL and the new portal rules have created chaos.

In the longer term I would petition Congress for relief. I think it would need to be part of a broader package of NCAA reform, and that is fine. The NCAA needs reform, but it also needs authority to establish and ENFORCE reasonable rules to govern sports. On NIL, you could either establish some form of team salary cap (like other professional sports have), which would be hard because how do you decide who gets what, or regulate the individual market.

What I think would make the most sense is for NIL to be actual NIL. Meaning, every NIL deal would have to go through the school's compliance department for approval. There would be markers established by an independent board as to what signatures, commercials, blogs, etc. are worth so that it is not just a billionaire righting a check for nothing. It would have to be a negotiated contract for actual services rendered that is fair and not just a bribe. Guys like Kris Murray would likely make more money than Tony Perkins because one is a bigger star. But, Kris has to do the commericial, or the signing, or the blog or whatever, and get paid a reasonable scale for what he did. Actors have a similar system for pay scales at lower levels. It is possible to put some guard rails here.

Its a complex problem. I don't have the answers. But, I personally do not like the system as is and I would advocate for smart people to at least try to put reasonable rules in place.
 

okeefe4prez

Well-Known Member
Get ready for the future, even when Fran and Kirk pan gold out of a stream where nobody else looked players will start using schools like Iowa to showcase their talent then jump to a NIL rich school. Barta needs to start yesterday lining up the NIL line to at least make Iowa competitive to keep relatively average talent home. Local Pizza commercial ain't gonna cut it.

It's potentially going to get bad, irregardless of what Iowa does. In the conference Ohio, Michigan and UPenn can crush us. That doesn't even include what programs like Tejas, USC, Tejas A&M, etc. can do.
 

InGoodCo

Well-Known Member
I think Iowa will eventually get there with NIL/Collective and have a plan in place just like every other school will, but as of now, the programs who were already paying players and have that infrastructure in place are really at an advantage until the rest catch up. These collectives have been around forever, they can now just be above the table.
 

Fryowa

Administrator
I have ducked nothing and I am not 60 and once again you are unable to make a cogent point without being a dick and making it personal.

If I were the NCAA I would first return the portal back to a 1 year sit out. It is the only thing they really can do to stem this lunacy in the short term. It would take away the incentive for these collectives to poach talent from other teams knowing they won't see the kid on the floor/field for 2 years. I don't like this in the long term, and I think kids should be able to freely transfer, but the confluence of NIL and the new portal rules have created chaos.

In the longer term I would petition Congress for relief. I think it would need to be part of a broader package of NCAA reform, and that is fine. The NCAA needs reform, but it also needs authority to establish and ENFORCE reasonable rules to govern sports. On NIL, you could either establish some form of team salary cap (like other professional sports have), which would be hard because how do you decide who gets what, or regulate the individual market.

What I think would make the most sense is for NIL to be actual NIL. Meaning, every NIL deal would have to go through the school's compliance department for approval. There would be markers established by an independent board as to what signatures, commercials, blogs, etc. are worth so that it is not just a billionaire righting a check for nothing. It would have to be a negotiated contract for actual services rendered that is fair and not just a bribe. Guys like Kris Murray would likely make more money than Tony Perkins because one is a bigger star. But, Kris has to do the commericial, or the signing, or the blog or whatever, and get paid a reasonable scale for what he did. Actors have a similar system for pay scales at lower levels. It is possible to put some guard rails here.

Its a complex problem. I don't have the answers. But, I personally do not like the system as is and I would advocate for smart people to at least try to put reasonable rules in place.
Gotcha. That’s a lot of words to say that you think college age people should be restricted in how and how much they can be paid so that you, an outside observer with absolutely no connection to the players or sport, can preserve your sense of nostalgia.

Okie doke.

You don’t like the system because it messes with something you feel entitled to (status quo college basketball environment) when you in fact aren’t entitled to anything.

You still haven’t given a reason other than “because that’s the way I like it” to justify your viewpoint that college players shouldn’t have the same freedom you or I do to make money with a talent.
 

NorthKCHawk

Well-Known Member
Fry, you asked for a response and I gave you one. If the words were too much for you, I could have dummied it down and just said, "No rules. Bad."

You keep attributing the word "nostalgic" to me. I am not some crusty old fuck. But, I do love the college football product and I think this has the chance to change it for the worse. I have repeatedly said I don't care how much or whether kids get paid. But, when a sport becomes mostly about dark money, performance enhancing drugs, technology cheats, gamblers controlling outcomes, bent refs, etc. it becomes less legitimate. The NFL is compelling to me because better run organizations win, not just the richest, big market teams like MLB and NBA. There are rules to even the playing field so Green Bay has just as much change to win as New York. College football was already unbalanced due to the influence of money. This is making it worse.

Also, lots of professions are regulated in pay. Do you think when a federal judge is appointed she walks into Justice Roberts office to negotiate her salary? The NFL has a rookie wage scale artificially holding down pay to kids about 5 minutes older than the kids you think are sacrosanct from regulation here. Regulation occurs in all sorts of professions.

Finally, I have given you lots of reasons that I don't like it. I get you disagree. But my opinion is no less valid just because you tantrum when responding.
 

Hawkboys

Well-Known Member
Also, lots of professions are regulated in pay. Do you think when a federal judge is appointed she walks into Justice Roberts office to negotiate her salary? The NFL has a rookie wage scale artificially holding down pay to kids about 5 minutes older than the kids you think are sacrosanct from regulation here. Regulation occurs in all sorts of professions.
I don't think the Judiciary Department is making millions off of circuit court judges on TV and in person, so this may not be the best comp.
 

okeefe4prez

Well-Known Member
True, but the NFL rookie wage scale is the perfect comp.

The NFL rookie wage scale was negotiated in a collective bargaining agreement, which takes it out of the Sherman Act. Again, neither the NCAA nor the conferences can restrict outside pay due to the SCOTUS ruling. It ain't going to change. Between roughly 1960 and 1980 the SEC was completely dominated by Alabama and Georgia, the Big Ten was completely dominated by Ohio and Michigan, Texas was great, 'Braska was great, Oklahoma was great, USC was great, etc. That era is coming back except without 'Braska being great and I think Alabama is going to fall off a cliff. The 85 scholarship limit provided some relative amount of parity, but I really think those days are coming to an end unless smaller teams are somehow miraculously able to conjure up massive amounts of cash to sufficiently dilute the talent. I agree with you, it sucks. But there ain't shit we can do about it.
 

HawkGold

Well-Known Member
Could have been. Like Indiana, they had an immediate need for a point guard. Iowa on the other hand had this dude named Lester at the point.

Three notes however:

Isiah' mother Mary Thomas loved Lute and Bobbi and was lifelong friends with Bobbi. Mary was also close friends with Nadine Lester.

Lute would have figured out a way to get Thomas and Lester on the floor at the same time and a team with that backcourt may have been outlawed by their other coaches in the B1G.

Guess who would have filled in at the point when Lester went down for most of the conference schedule? With Kenny Arnold to play along side and/or back up.
Kenny Arnold was a fine point guard. His weakness is that he didn't have Lester playing alongside like Ronnie had in Kenny. Remember when Al McGuire called Kenny a street player and to shake and bake? Made Lute really mad, but it wasn't meant as an insult.
 

Northside Hawk

Well-Known Member
Kenny Arnold was a fine point guard. His weakness is that he didn't have Lester playing alongside like Ronnie had in Kenny. Remember when Al McGuire called Kenny a street player and to shake and bake? Made Lute really mad, but it wasn't meant as an insult.
Lute may have still been upset over losing Doc Rivers to Al and Marquette. Lute got a pretty nice consolation prize however.

Ronnie Lester.

You're right about Arnold however. Tremendously underrated player. He was deadly from the top of the key and could penetrate as well. Life didn't deal him any kind of fair hand post college.
 

HawkGold

Well-Known Member
Lute may have still been upset over losing Doc Rivers to Al and Marquette. Lute got a pretty nice consolation prize however.

Ronnie Lester.

You're right about Arnold however. Tremendously underrated player. He was deadly from the top of the key and could penetrate as well. Life didn't deal him any kind of fair hand post college.
You would think being a good Big pt guard would pave the way through life. So sad. Great Hawk.
 

thedukeofearl

Well-Known Member
Kenny Arnold was a fine point guard. His weakness is that he didn't have Lester playing alongside like Ronnie had in Kenny. Remember when Al McGuire called Kenny a street player and to shake and bake? Made Lute really mad, but it wasn't meant as an insult.

Al McGuire was/is a Saint
 

Fryowa

Administrator
...I do love the college football product and I think this has the chance to change it for the worse
In your opinion it is.

Again I ask, and again you'll fail to answer...

How is this different than telling an elite computer programmer who is also a college student that he or she should have a limit or restrictions put on the amount of money they can make in that field while in school? Especially when those restrictions and limits would be put in place by a bunch of folks like yourself with no connection whatsoever to the students in question...

Until you can explain and justify the difference, it's just you screaming in a vacuum because you're losing your sense of nostalgia. If that's what it is, just be a big boy and admit it. That's more honorable than trying to make up bogus reasons.

I honestly want to hear your justification for telling a college kid that someone else should control their earning ability.
 

Hawkfnntn

Well-Known Member
In your opinion it is.

Again I ask, and again you'll fail to answer...

How is this different than telling an elite computer programmer who is also a college student that he or she should have a limit or restrictions put on the amount of money they can make in that field while in school? Especially when those restrictions and limits would be put in place by a bunch of folks like yourself with no connection whatsoever to the students in question...

Until you can explain and justify the difference, it's just you screaming in a vacuum because you're losing your sense of nostalgia. If that's what it is, just be a big boy and admit it. That's more honorable than trying to make up bogus reasons.

I honestly want to hear your justification for telling a college kid that someone else should control their earning ability.
The entire point of what NIL is all about is for it to be unregulated by the NCAA... For guys like this to want to have it regulated (by the toothless NCAA of all things) is insane. They lost that battle in court already. I can't see putting any amount of that toothpaste back in the tube. It isn't happening. They can try but they can't enforce anything

The NCAA needs to try and curtail tampering with coaches and boosters contacting kids that are signed/enrolled in other schools. To me that's about the only issue I see that needs addressing. But good luck with that too. Last time I checked Bill Self still has a job without even a slap on the wrist for the crap he's done.

Boosters contacting unsigned recruits is fair game. Paying them and any kid whatever they come to an agreement for is as American as hot dogs and beer at a baseball game.
 

NorthKCHawk

Well-Known Member
In your opinion it is.

Again I ask, and again you'll fail to answer...

How is this different than telling an elite computer programmer who is also a college student that he or she should have a limit or restrictions put on the amount of money they can make in that field while in school? Especially when those restrictions and limits would be put in place by a bunch of folks like yourself with no connection whatsoever to the students in question...

Until you can explain and justify the difference, it's just you screaming in a vacuum because you're losing your sense of nostalgia. If that's what it is, just be a big boy and admit it. That's more honorable than trying to make up bogus reasons.

I honestly want to hear your justification for telling a college kid that someone else should control their earning ability.
Seriously, Fry, your use of the word nostalgia is as tired as you. That is not what this is about for me. I don't need to see giant shoulder pads, t-formations, and Hayden Fry on the sideline yelling at his tight ends to stand up straighter. Change can be great.

But, for the 20th time in this string alone, my justification for not liking NIL is that it creates a less competitive environment where success is bought and not earned. Without some form of competitive balance and rules in place, college football starts to look more like professional wrestling. Hyperbolic? Sure.

If I am the conferences/schools/NCAA, my justification for telling these kids that their earnings have to have some level of oversight and control is simple. This is our product. You are a guest here. If you don't like it, go play football someplace else. It has been the same justification for 100 years. Yes, college football is a billions dollar industry. Who built that industry? The member universities after decades of development and investment. Now that it is such a financial jaugurnaut, I am fine with the athletes getting a piece of the pie. But, let's not fool ourselves as to who made the pie.

And, do you think these boosters really give a shit about the kids? They are paying millions of dollars in bribe money for one reason: to fill their teams uniforms with disposable talent. As soon as these kids are no longer eligible, the boosters will start bribing the next group of kids. Its about the Iowa on the helmet, not the Bobby under the helmet.

Fry, your attitude on behalf of these kids reeks of entitlement. What's the old saying about rich kids? They were born on third base and think they hit a triple. The kids that are raking in money under NIL had nothing to do with building the financial empire that is college football. The notion that they have some inalienable right to make money off of Iowa's name without any restrictions or regulations is risible to me.
 

Hawkfnntn

Well-Known Member
I think Iowa will eventually get there with NIL/Collective and have a plan in place just like every other school will, but as of now, the programs who were already paying players and have that infrastructure in place are really at an advantage until the rest catch up. These collectives have been around forever, they can now just be above the table.
Hopefully sooner than later.. But Barta and Iowa has always been reactive not proactive with things like this. I wouldn't expect anything different.
 

InGoodCo

Well-Known Member
I suspect that Iowa will be at the level as everyone else fairly quickly, but at the same time I feel like both Fran and Kirk are the type of coaches that would tell a recruit that led with the "show me the money, NIL is the most important part of my recruitment" will be quickly passed over for guys with better character. I also assume Iowa will be in better shape because of that. I'm glad we have the coaches we do.
 

okeefe4prez

Well-Known Member
Seriously, Fry, your use of the word nostalgia is as tired as you. That is not what this is about for me. I don't need to see giant shoulder pads, t-formations, and Hayden Fry on the sideline yelling at his tight ends to stand up straighter. Change can be great.

But, for the 20th time in this string alone, my justification for not liking NIL is that it creates a less competitive environment where success is bought and not earned. Without some form of competitive balance and rules in place, college football starts to look more like professional wrestling. Hyperbolic? Sure.

If I am the conferences/schools/NCAA, my justification for telling these kids that their earnings have to have some level of oversight and control is simple. This is our product. You are a guest here. If you don't like it, go play football someplace else. It has been the same justification for 100 years. Yes, college football is a billions dollar industry. Who built that industry? The member universities after decades of development and investment. Now that it is such a financial jaugurnaut, I am fine with the athletes getting a piece of the pie. But, let's not fool ourselves as to who made the pie.

And, do you think these boosters really give a shit about the kids? They are paying millions of dollars in bribe money for one reason: to fill their teams uniforms with disposable talent. As soon as these kids are no longer eligible, the boosters will start bribing the next group of kids. Its about the Iowa on the helmet, not the Bobby under the helmet.

Fry, your attitude on behalf of these kids reeks of entitlement. What's the old saying about rich kids? They were born on third base and think they hit a triple. The kids that are raking in money under NIL had nothing to do with building the financial empire that is college football. The notion that they have some inalienable right to make money off of Iowa's name without any restrictions or regulations is risible to me.

It goes back to the NFL. Jeudy from Bama had no business playing college football in his third year out of high school. That rush end from Georgia had no business playing college football last year. But the NFL has a rule, which has survived litigation, that a guy has to be three years removed from high school to play in the NFL. And there is no way to build a viable competitor to the college game because at the end of the day, we all cheer for the laundry. That's why I have no problem with the schools not paying dudes. The schools own the trademarks on the laundry and have cultivated the goodwill.

The players can't really make money off Iowa's name. Using the trademark in advertising absent a paid up license from the school is a big no-no.

Anyway, success will still be earned. Iowa has earned a deserved reputation as a bad place for WRs and QBs, while Ohio has earned a reputation as a good place for WRs and QBs. I don't think even a million bucks would sway someone with NFL dreams to go to Iowa to play WR under the current regime.
 

Hawkfnntn

Well-Known Member
I suspect that Iowa will be at the level as everyone else fairly quickly, but at the same time I feel like both Fran and Kirk are the type of coaches that would tell a recruit that led with the "show me the money, NIL is the most important part of my recruitment" will be quickly passed over for guys with better character. I also assume Iowa will be in better shape because of that. I'm glad we have the coaches we do.
It's a fine line that they'll be teetering on. Ignoring those that will be prioritizing the $ will really really limit the pool of kids for them to pick from. Totally get what you're saying and I don't disagree with the angle. It's just that even the kids that aren't 5 stars that aren't being offered the Nike deals are going to want to try and get what they can. It's probably how they go about it that makes a difference too.
 

SwirlinLingerie

Well-Known Member
Only skimmed the thread, but would a lot of mid-level P5 teams like Iowa have some collective cash for a guy like Kris Murray by now? Seems like he intends to be back, but also quickly rising up the draft boards. How much could a guy like Kris - potentially a late first round pick if the right team is interested - generate from a school like Iowa in order to tip the scale to returning?
 
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