All this talk of player rotations...how would you do it?

WindsorHawk said:
Anyone that thinks this can be charted out has never coached. It can't be done...game situations, match ups, hot hand, off day, etc. Fran plays 10 or 11 guys and then settles on 7 or 8 that get most of the minutes in that particular game...exactly what should be done with a deep team.
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Sure glad that our "hot hand" Mccabe played 22 minutes against Ohio st.
 
This is difficult, but I will try


I am going to try and set it up with 200 minutes (obviously things change for a variety of reason)

PG: Gesell 32 mins, Sapp 8 mins. RDM if needed
Wings (2-3) 80 mins. Marble 32 mins, White 20 mins, Uthoff 16 mins and JO 12
4 spot: Basabe 18, White 12, McCabe 10
5: Woody 18, Gabe 18, Basabe 4. I figure fouls with the Woody and Gabe. For sure 1 and usually both get 2 fouls in the first hald
 
Has Marble played much with, for example, Oleseni? Has Gessel played much with for example, Oglesby? Has Basabe played much with, for example, Clemmons? Do some of these matchups result in 'good' production from both players?
 
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HomerChampless said:
Has Marble played much with, for example, Oleseni? Has Gessel played much with for example, Oglesby? Has Basabe played much with, for example, Clemmons? Do some of these matchups result in 'good' production from both players?
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If you mean have they developed any form of familiarity, it doesn't matter. We already got that starting every game. A lineup I want to see is, if he wants to run, a freakin' SMALL one for longer periods of time. Gesell-Oglesby-Marble-White-Basabe. Those are our toolsiest players minus Olaseni not being there, but the main one I guess I'd shoot for is Gesell-Marble-White-Uthoff-Olaseni. Shooters, penetrators, rim attackers. And if any of those things fail it's our LENGTH lineup, so we should get an offensive board or two. Marble-Oglesby-McCabe-Basabe-Olaseni is another really good one. Did you spot what those guys have in common? 3 Sr, 2 Jr.
 
mojohawk said:
Sure glad that our "hot hand" Mccabe played 22 minutes against Ohio st.
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EXACTLY ... McCabe + Jok combined for 27 minutes -- 3rd most on the team -- and for that you got 4 pts, on 11% overall / 14% from 3 shooting, 5 boards, 1 assist, 1 to, 1 stl, 2 fouls and umpteen defensive lapses.

15 of those minutes should have gone to Gabe / Woody, 6-8 should have gone to Mel / Uthoff, 4-6 should have gone to Gesell.

Overall, Iowa should have attempted 10 fewer 3's -- leaving no purpose for McCabe or Jok to even shoot and no room for Oglesby to have played any more.

Someone needs to tell Fran that he's convinced himself he has several good shooters; unfortunately, he's stuck in December in that assessment. This team wins by going big and attacking the basket for and-1's or as many dunks, put-backs and offensive rebounds as possible. The offense needs to be run inside-out, through Gabe / Woody, with set plays for Marble drives and White back-doors.

Less McCabe & Oglesby, no more Jok, MORE Gabe & Woody & White together for long stretches.
 
STILLBUSTER said:
Ok with current starting 5: Gesell, Marble, White, Basabe, Woody.

Unless one is just atrociously screwing up on both ends of the floor, they get 4-6 minutes to establish themselves and show me if they've come to play and what kind of game they're going to have.

My intent is Gabe is coming in for Mel or Woody at that point (if they are doing ok, I'm not rocking the boat until 2nd tv time out at 8 minutes).
If Mel, I now have Gesell, Marble, White, Woody, Gabe. I'm looking for Marble lobs and Woody passes to White on back cuts for dunks. I'm also setting up a great high/low game between the twin towers with Woody feeding Gabe on the blocks or driving. Marble can attack or shoot with a triple threat (White, Woody, Gabe) to clean up the glass and get the put backs.

If Gabe needs to get Woody, depending on Mel's game, I might also bring in Uthoff with Gabe. Shift White to the 4 and I now have Gesell, Marble, Uthoff(3), White(4), Gabe(5). I've now upheld my rebounding with White and Gabe but also stretched the defense with Uthoff at the 3 for some pop or dribble-drive, tho I'd like to keep that open for White and Marble to go to work.

Notice, at no time am I compromising my biggest strength -- height (6'2, 6'6, 6'9, 6'9, 6'10), length (Marble, Uthoff, Gabe), and relentless inside attack -- and I've expanded it with a solid threat of dribble drive from 2, 3 or 4 (Marble, White, Uthoff) and a hint of shooting (Marble, Uthoff, Gesell). At all 5 positions (less so with Gabe and Gesell) I've got dual and at 3 I've got triple-threats.

If I've got a 3 possession lead, I might go a little more "line-change" at that 4-8 minute mark for a little rest. In addition to the above, I might bring in Sapp for Mike and / or Oglesby for Mike (Dev goes to point) or Dev. This really depends on if my inside attack has worked to create fouls and force opponent into zone. That's the only time to bring in Oglesby because he's not going to be able to create his own space for shots against man but would definitely have opportunities with quick swing passes against a zone, where he's got time to go through his slow square and shoot.

I've now potentially used Gesell, Marble, White, Woody, Gabe, Mel, Uthoff, Oglesby and Sapp. Those 1st 5 or 6 need to get 24-30, depending on Woody / Mel. Uthoff gets 15-18, as my utility guy. Oglesby / Sapp for 6-10, depending on opportunity and performance.

McCabe is a guy I use less than 6-8 minutes a game, never at the 5 and never without Gabe or Woody on the floor. Jok is done unless I've got foul trouble or injury.

I continue to strive for transition, especially when Gesell, Marble, White and Gabe are on the floor. However, unlike now, I still have a half-court identity that is to work you inside-out. I'm gonna overwhelm you with size, relentlessly attack the rim and glass to create put backs or free throws. I want you to pack in a zone to stop this so I give my shooters more space to take their slow square up and release shots. When they can go through their motions, I have confidence they will hit those wide-open looks -- not so much against man or in transition.

There ya go, Fran, know who you are and use your best players to go dominate at it.
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Perfect blueprint for success. Very articulate and well thought out post. Great job.
 
RocknRollface said:
So no ones ideal rotation includes McCabe but Frans.
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I'm fine with McCabe under the constraints of my previous post. If he's 1 of the 7 or 8 in a particular game then McCabe it is. If there are 7 or 8 other guys playing better then it's those guys. I'm not hating on anyone or picking favorites. It is 7 or 8 guys out of the 11.
 
1 - Marble
2 - Gesell
3 - Uthoff
4 - White
5 - Olaseni

Depending what the OTHER TEAM is doing, I would sub accordingly. But the starters would get the majority of the minutes to get into a flow, and they would know that ahead of time.

Basabe/Oglesby would get near starter minutes, follow by 5-10 min of Clemmons/Woody. McCabe would play vs middle tier teams or games that suit his physical play.
 
I think there is a need to rotate and sub by position rather than by body count (this assumes no foul trouble):

Starters as is: Marble, gesell, white, woody, basabe

By position - PG: Gesell, when gesell needs a break, marble or maybe Clemmons for a couple minutes around a TV timeout, then get Gesell back in.

2 Guard - Marble should be able to play most of the first 8-10 minutes, then if he is coming out from the 2 guard spot, replace with Oglesby for scoring,

Small Forward and 4 spot power forward can be rotated interchangeably. White and Basabe for about 8 minute stretches, take one out at a time for a couple minutes and wrapped around a tv timeout, replace with Uhtoff or McCabe for short periods and based on matchups, but when the other starter goes out then bring back in the first starter who just got a 2-3 minute real time rest.

Center position - Woody then Gabe then Woody then Gabe. Keep one or two of these guys in the game at all times. Would love to see us post each down low on one block , and try some skip passes to get a good entry look.

Overall this should keep 3-4 starters on the floor at all times, which I hope lets them get back their shooting groove and ups the defense
 
tm3308 said:
I actually really like our current starting lineup; I wouldn't change it.

As far as rotations, I'm not even going to try. Fran's having a hard enough time figuring all this out; I've got no chance of planning out the entire rotation. But I think a good general rule of thumb would be NO lineup combinations that involve both McCabe and Oglesby/Uthoff+Olaseni. When McCabe's on the floor, Marble and White both need to be there, IMO. That's not meant to be a knock on Oglesby or Uthoff (especially JO, because I really like what he's brought so far), but McCabe's game is too focused on threes right now. We need a more diverse scoring lineup with McCabe out there; Marble can hit threes or beat his man off the dribble and White works all kinds of magic inside the arc+he's a great rebounder. We also need Woody on the floor to help on the defensive end in those situations; McCabe is a defensive liability and Olaseni is too inconsistent to pair up with him in the paint.

Lineups suitable for McCabe:

Sapp/Gesell
Marble
White
McCabe
Woody

He can get solid minutes with those lineups, since neither is heavy on bench players, and it's the best possible balance between offense/defense we can have with him out there, IMO.
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I agree with you on the starting lineup. We all need to step back and realize that Iowa went something like 3-20 from 3pnt land and all but 1 of those were completely uncontested. They were Wide Open Shots. If we shoot our season % (37% i think) we score an extra 13 points and win by 6. I know tha didn't happen and it reminds us of last season, but, this team hasn't had a horrible shooting night like this, this season, until O$U. I re-adjusted the idea of winning the B1G regular season after we lost to MSUx. I want to see this team finish in 3rd place and get to championship game of B1G and then see what happens in the NCAA. I'm starting to believe that Fran has a knack to build turnament teams better than regular season championship teams. He had to do that at the other schools he coached at as that was his only shot of getting to the NCAA's...winning te league tourney. Just my 2 cents.
 
ArvadaHawk said:
I agree with you on the starting lineup. We all need to step back and realize that Iowa went something like 3-20 from 3pnt land and all but 1 of those were completely uncontested. They were Wide Open Shots. If we shoot our season % (37% i think) we score an extra 13 points and win by 6. I know tha didn't happen and it reminds us of last season, but, this team hasn't had a horrible shooting night like this, this season, until O$U. I re-adjusted the idea of winning the B1G regular season after we lost to MSUx. I want to see this team finish in 3rd place and get to championship game of B1G and then see what happens in the NCAA. I'm starting to believe that Fran has a knack to build turnament teams better than regular season championship teams. He had to do that at the other schools he coached at as that was his only shot of getting to the NCAA's...winning te league tourney. Just my 2 cents.
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You said it right there, this team goes as does its shooting. They generally play real good defense and rebound well, but when shooting is off and too many turnovers it is quite obvious they cant get over the hump
 
My predictions for the remaining games:

1. We will never see Woodbury and Olaseni on the floor at the same time.
2. McCabe will average 1.5 to 2 times as many minutes per game as Uthoff.
3. Gesell's minutes will go up to about 28 a game on average.
4. White's minutes will go up to about 30 a game on average.
5. Marble will never get less than 30 minutes in a game, unless it's a blowout or if he gets into foul trouble early.
6. Jok will continue to get token appearances or no appearances.
7. Oglesby will be playing a lot in the last 10 minutes of close or relatively close games for both defense and offense.
 
glidinghawk said:
My predictions for the remaining games:

1. We will never see Woodbury and Olaseni on the floor at the same time.
2. McCabe will average 1.5 to 2 times as many minutes per game as Uthoff.
3. Gesell's minutes will go up to about 28 a game on average.
4. White's minutes will go up to about 30 a game on average.
5. Marble will never get less than 30 minutes in a game, unless it's a blowout or if he gets into foul trouble early.
6. Jok will continue to get token appearances or no appearances.
7. Oglesby will be playing a lot in the last 10 minutes of close or relatively close games for both defense and offense.
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1. Well NO, 3 great PF on this team wanting minutes. No time to force this round peg into the square hole
2. I don't think he will. Uthoff will go up until eventually he pinnacles out in the Starting Lineup. Woodbury or Basabe will find themselves to be expendable when shooting plus long arms, high IQ are all involved.
3. What's Gesell at now? Can't be that low, but Clemmons and Jok only appearing to take a step BACK each time out.
4. Defintely, this HAS TO happen with White
5. And Marble, though he has missed time for injury and his scoring takes nights off. He does everything right enough to need to be out there every minute. And by *enough* I mean he does very well. 3s, drives, off the ball, dribbling as Point, wing, jump-shooter, even FT stud.
6. Agreed. Jok has a great future and probably a 15-20 point game in him this year. For f*** if we know when it is. All he is until then is the one human player on your video game, doing ill-advised things while CPU players are running the offense. Or trying to. Jok is this dumb right now.
7. I don't think there will be any specific place for him. He'll either be in regular intervals or with 1:30 left in a tight game.

ONE MORE PREDICTION!

8. Marble's FT shooting will go above 75.
9. By one prediction I meant 5 more. Including Gesell's FT up past 69
10. Lineup we won't see: Gesell-Oglesby-Marble-White-Uthoff. Sharp-shooting small lineup we'll never see playing together.
11. Lineup we'll TOTALLY see: Marble-Oglesby-McCabe-Basabe-Olaseni. It's our 5 highest classmen, that's how I know. Also great mix of shooting, shot-blocking, different types of offensive skills.
12. Olaseni is just playing well right now, but Gesell has taken the step for good. Last 3 minus horrific MSU outing: 11.3, PPG 3.3 AST, a board and 1.3 STL. 13-26 FG, 3-10 3pt, 8-12 FT. Fine, the FT was using the MSU instead of Michigan where he shot 0-0 FT. Point is he's shooting, he's shooting everything, and he's throwing up triple-counting stats that are exceptionally Point Guardy.

Doubt these are off Horner or Oliver in their fresh or soph years. K Horner's Soph year was nuts-awesome but otherwise a mirror, also with Boyd (Horner's teammate) for the first two. Also Horner played 35 and 37 MPG those years. Gesell 22.5 now from 25.1 as a frosh. Rate stats don't translate with MPG but 3.something ASSISTS looks mighty great with extra time factored on. I checked, it's 18.5 PPG and 5.4 AST with 2.2 STL if with Horner's 37 MPG.

Oh, but if it's OLASENI who shows this is the norm and not a hot streak? 14.3 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 1 APG, 13-18 72% FG 15-18 85% FT 2 BPG. Oh, we're again tossing out MSU. Something about that game was really grabby, fouly and very not useful for this type of thing. Well, the FT would've been cool. But I'll let you imagine what old Gabe O. would have if translated to 30+ minutes.

Right now he's a scoring, rebounding defensive virtuoso who has the longest wingspan since Reiner accidentally tore of JR Koch's arms. Yes, THAT is how far I need to go to think of something like this. But, alas, Centers aren't that good just because you take them from Britain and give them a ball.

13. Are they? The could be. Rest of the team came from Iowa (Woody), Nebraska (Gesell), Ohio (White), Michigan (Marble) and upstate NY (Basabe) in wide open spacial places when basketball isn't happening on streets.
 
I would hire stillbuster and windsorhawks as assistant coaches.

What fun coaches' meetings would be.
 
glidinghawk said:
My predictions for the remaining games:

1. We will never see Woodbury and Olaseni on the floor at the same time.I wish you were wrong, even for a couple trials but expect you're right.
2. McCabe will average 1.5 to 2 times as many minutes per game as Uthoff.Ok, now you're just trying to **** me off. The correct multiplier should be 0.3 to 0.5 of Uthoff's minutes. I'm good with this if you change the name to Olaseni.
3. Gesell's minutes will go up to about 28 a game on average. Cool, tho not quite enough.
4. White's minutes will go up to about 30 a game on average.Love it!
5. Marble will never get less than 30 minutes in a game, unless it's a blowout or if he gets into foul trouble early.Hope so, tho would like 10%more.
6. Jok will continue to get token appearances or no appearances.This is a complete waste. Give the minutes to Oglesby or Uthoff.
7. Oglesby will be playing a lot in the last 10 minutes of close or relatively close games for both defense and offense.The anticipated result on both ends of the floor is baseless, wishful thinking. I'm ok with him getting the opportunity, as long as he gets the hook as soon as it's apparent he won't produce -- i.e. against solid man and when he struggles to even look for attempts, let alone take them.
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Go BIG or go home.
 
big10er said:
Rotations should be heavily dependent on creating mismatches for the opponent and going with the hot hand. Having set rotations doesn't allow for match ups. This has been a problem for this staff/team so far this season
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EXACTLY AND THANK YOU. For some unexplainable reason McCaffrey is only playing substitution by time or fouls...what the hell is he doing!!!!
 
Have confidence in Fran...The pitch fork's and torches were out last year when he continued to stick with Ogles3...The season is long from over. The hawk's will play their best when the tourney's begin. The team was playing pretty well in the NIT
 
seepig said:
EXACTLY AND THANK YOU. For some unexplainable reason McCaffrey is only playing substitution by time or fouls...what the hell is he doing!!!!
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I think Fran is used to coaching the 10 man 'garbage' rotation because, previously, his teams haven't had as much talent. IMO, he thinks the 10 man rotation is the only thing that will wear out the more athletic teams and create a win. He doesn't realize he's coaching in the B1G, now, and this is a whole less likely to happen (except during a tournament).

So, does Fran think there are two seasons, here? The regular season and, like the NBA (and NCAA), the playoff season which counts more?
 
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