3-4 vs 4-3

[Foval21]

i have seen a lot of people arguing whether or not iowa should switch to a 3-4 defense. my personal opinion is no and i will explain why. let us at least agree that the personnel needed for these two defenses is different with a little bit of overlap. the main overlap is the defensive backfield doesnt change much depending on your style of 3-4.

defensive line - in a 3-4 your nose is the most important player. he must force a double team at all times. he must be a block eater. your de is really a large de in a 4-3 again block eaters. in a 4-3 your dts are usually a little smaller and can do more twist and stunts. the main difference is the de. in a 4-3 depending on calls the de is outside the tackle or te. he is a rusher stuck with an outside contain this isnt the case in a 3-4. in a 3-4 he is trying to force a double and usually has no contain.

linebackers - in a 3-4 the olb is really the 4-3 de. people that think an olb in a 4-3 can be one in a 3-4 are mistaken most olbs in pros are converted 4-3 des. these guys are big and fast. they are the defenses version of the tight ends we are seeing dominate. ware for the cowboys is like graham for the saints. we dont have the guys to play this position. the ilb is very similar to the mlb in a 4-3.

strategy - 4-3 tend to be more gap oriented not that 3-4s arent they just tend to be more pressure oriented. the type of athletes we have fit better for a gap style because the pressure a 3-4 is supposed to create also leaves opportunity for big plays and you need great individual athletes to make up for those collapses. we just dont have the athletes that can pull this off.

myth - some think that we have played a 3-4 and i will say in personnel we have but in style we havent. 3-4 is built on pressure and when we go to it it is to rush 3 and drop 8 this is a rarity in a true 3-4. in fact our form of a 3-4 is much closer to a nickel 3 front or a 3-3-5. this is a variation of the nickel to help in passing downs with 4 and 5 wrs. i say this because last year when we used it hitchens tended to come in and he had practiced at both safety and lb which to me means it was more of a nickel variation.

could we posibly run a 3-4? yes, but with the athletes we have now it would actually set us up for failure. i dont disagree more blitzes and pressure need to be done but we could take a play out of the 4-3 the ny giants use by getting multiple des in on passing downs and their stunts and such. i know they are up and down this year on defense but their 4-3 is a pressure causing 4-3.

 

[kmotuffe]

We look like the Steelers, might as well copy them.

Would have to SIGNIFICANTLY improve our LB talent to make this happen though.

SIGNIFICANTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[simpsonllp]

4-3 and then nickel on 3rd and 4+. The nickel on 3rd and 4+ is where we l drop the ball.

 

[RocknRollface]

Agreed. Iowa has never run anything resembling a true 3-4. Calling it nickle is being generous, its more of a prevent most of the time and it has usually just given opposing QBs all day to throw.

 

[Foval21]

We look like the Steelers, might as well copy them.Would have to SIGNIFICANTLY improve our LB talent to make this happen though.SIGNIFICANTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

not only our lbs have to change but also our dl. the only lbs i see working in it would be morris and alston as ilbs. and i dont think we have a dl on the roster next year that would fit the personnel.

 

[DTF]

Run what you have the personnel for. For Iowa it's 4-3 currently.

 

[hawkeyegamefilm]

not only our lbs have to change but also our dl. the only lbs i see working in it would be morris and alston as ilbs. and i dont think we have a dl on the roster next year that would fit the personnel.

I tend to agree with you on this one. Carl Davis is the only guy on the roster who even has the raw size to play a 0 and he isn't a guy who's shown any kind of consistency or stayed healthy. Iowa could probably cobble together some guys to play the 5 techniques but it'd be an up-hill battle getting them used to a 2 gap system. The NT would have big time depth issues and is a deal breaker.

Outside LBs for a 3-4 hard to come by at the college level. They mostly have 4-3 WDE size and 4-3 WLB speed+COD. Kirksey and Hitchens would be out of place in those roles. Derby is still an unknown at this point as well.

One of Iowa's possible recruits, LB Quanzell Lambert is an example of a guy who could play that 3-4 OLB spot. Size+explosiveness like he has is hard to find. He could end up at DE if he goes to Iowa, given the depth and need their.

 

[hawkihayes]

Most of you are missing the most important piece of the 3-4 D. You must have a 0 or 1 technique that is a 6'4"or 5" 310+ stud and we don't have that player on our roster.

 

[Foval21]

Most of you are missing the most important piece of the 3-4 D. You must have a 0 or 1 technique that is a 6'4"or 5" 310 stud and we don't have that player on our roster.

i believe both hgf and i brought up the nose. size isnt the most important thing in that position (though it does help) but the guy does have to be a star. we dont have any lineman that fit the bill.

 

[RocknRollface]

Most of you are missing the most important piece of the 3-4 D. You must have a 0 or 1 technique that is a 6'4"or 5" 310+ stud and we don't have that player on our roster.

Or even bigger. In the NFL they are in the 350lb range and are usually the biggest guys on the field.

 

[SpecialKHawk]

I am one who thinks that the 3-4 could be run. I would put Davis over the nose 4 starters. Then I would vary my tackles sometimes playing them over the guards for a tight alignment and then my inside LB's behind them with scraping duties. I would leave the offensive tackles exposed. Then my outside LB's would be 2 yards off the line of scrimmage and outside of the offensive tackles. They would crash the outside on run and play flats and hook zones on pass.

The concept is to take away what 85% of teams do now against 4-3; hit on the edges and out in space or spread u out a run up middle. A tight 3-4 leaves you strong in the middle still.

This alignment also gives u a lot of blitzing possibilities. I also want to make make those massive offensive tackles move in space instead of leaning on their man.

It might sound crazy but i think this would give us a nice change up in a game, give us the anti-spread and make use of the deep roster of LB's with limited d-line bodies.

 

[RocknRollface]

Run what you have the personnel for. For Iowa it's 4-3 currently.

You pretty much have to pick a scheme and stick to it, you can't make that drastic a change on a yearly basis.

The 3-4 is more complicated and requires more risk taking, thats really the opposite of what KF wants on both fronts.

 

[Foval21]

this is the mistake many people make. they think an abundance of lbs and lack of depth at dl makes for a reason to play a 3-4. davis is big and that is all he has shown. he consistently was single blocked and moved backwards when he played this year. also an olb in a 3-4 is not really a lb. they are more of a defemsive end with great athleticism so they play what is really a hybrid. we dont have any de that could convert to this or lbs that could play it.

another huge problem is that a 3-4 is a 2 gap defense for your dl. this is difficult to do unless you are just physically stronger than the ol. we dont have dl that can play that style. tight, wide, shifted, whatever. study the two defenses in the pros and you would see how difficult the 3-4 is and that is why onlu the best can do it. and like all things in football if you dont have the right linemen to pull it off you wont pull it off. line dictates all in football. it is won in the trenches. play to your strengths.

 

[Foval21]

bumping this thread because i think some posters need to read about the 3-4 that they think we can run. we cant. the shift in defense would actually put us back 3 to 4 years and then we would be complaining about 5 and 6 win seasons instead of 7 and 8 win seasons.

 

[RocknRollface]

this is the mistake many people make. they think an abundance of lbs and lack of depth at dl makes for a reason to play a 3-4. davis is big and that is all he has shown. he consistently was single blocked and moved backwards when he played this year. also an olb in a 3-4 is not really a lb. they are more of a defemsive end with great athleticism so they play what is really a hybrid. we dont have any de that could convert to this or lbs that could play it.

another huge problem is that a 3-4 is a 2 gap defense for your dl. this is difficult to do unless you are just physically stronger than the ol. we dont have dl that can play that style. tight, wide, shifted, whatever. study the two defenses in the pros and you would see how difficult the 3-4 is and that is why onlu the best can do it. and like all things in football if you dont have the right linemen to pull it off you wont pull it off. line dictates all in football. it is won in the trenches. play to your strengths.

I agree none of the returning experience fits that system except for Davis size wise but he has shown no ability to date.

And Im firmly against the idea but for discussions sake I actually think Cooper, Johnson and especially Faith E all project decently at the ends and possibly Johnson at 300lbs could play tackle. Obviously starting three guys freshman is not a good idea.

Derby actually projects almost ideally as a 3-4 OLB but we have no one else that I see for the other side. Maybe Melvin Spears but thats just a total guess.

Kirksey and Hitchens would be totally out of place.

 

[RocknRollface]

Actually the more I think about it, down the road a lineup of

Derby Morris Alston, Spears
Cooper Johnson Faith E

could be pretty sick given the right coordinator and a head with an aggressive mentality.

 

[HomerChampless]

bumping this thread because i think some posters need to read about the 3-4 that they think we can run. we cant. the shift in defense would actually put us back 3 to 4 years and then we would be complaining about 5 and 6 win seasons instead of 7 and 8 win seasons.

I can't see Iowa winning more than 5-6 games next season using the 4-3 and current or recruited players.
2nd EDIT: We've got the 3 linebackers, but not the most important (at least to Norm Parker's defense) part: the 4 good DLs.

The 3-4 puts more athletic pass defenders on RBs, TEs, and slot receivers. The 3-4 makes Iowa's defense more athletic.

Now with the 4-3 and the soft zone Iowa's DBs play , the only way Iowa beats offenses like Northwestern is by outscoring offenses like Northwestern.

EDIT: actually, using the 3-4, Iowa's DBs will have to defend the pass completion.

 

[RocknRollface]

I can't see Iowa winning more than 5-6 games next season using the 4-3 and current or recruited players.
2nd EDIT: We've got the 3 linebackers, but not the most important (at least to Norm Parker's defense) part: the 4 good DLs.

The 3-4 puts more athletic pass defenders on RBs, TEs, and slot receivers. The 3-4 makes Iowa's defense more athletic.

Now with the 4-3 and the soft zone Iowa's DBs play , the only way Iowa beats offenses like Northwestern is by outscoring offenses like Northwestern.


EDIT: actually, using the 3-4, Iowa's DBs will have to defend the pass completion.

3-4 would be worse, much worse actually.

Iowa would never be aggressive enough to make 3-4 even a viable thought. Kirk would rush 3 and drop 8 on most downs and It would allow teams to run us over and give them all day to throw.

You don't go 3-4 for its ability to cover, you play it for its ability to get pressure on the QB.

Putting more LBs in pass coverage is a bad idea. More Dbs is a much better idea.

 

[Foval21]

the 3-4 is a blitzing defense that is built on bringing 4-6 players (including dl). usually you see 5 rushers. this will make it so we have to play man defense and man with some doubles and zones under or over the man. this hurts us the most. we have solid dbs but not man coverage dbs. our safeties are usually our big time players but you need cbs that can single cover and lbs that can cover wrs, tes, rbs man to man. most people talk about having our lbs matched up with a wr in zone is bad try in man. we have only had a handful of dbs that i believe could be man players and that is why most of our dbs that get drafted are safeties or converted to safety in the pros.

 

[big10fan]

the 3-4 is a blitzing defense that is built on bringing 4-6 players (including dl). usually you see 5 rushers. this will make it so we have to play man defense and man with some doubles and zones under or over the man. this hurts us the most. we have solid dbs but not man coverage dbs. our safeties are usually our big time players but you need cbs that can single cover and lbs that can cover wrs, tes, rbs man to man. most people talk about having our lbs matched up with a wr in zone is bad try in man. we have only had a handful of dbs that i believe could be man players and that is why most of our dbs that get drafted are safeties or converted to safety in the pros.

yeah, it would require a huge change in how we coach/teach every position on D. the main reason we won't do it (besides personnel) is we aren't that type of "risk taking" team, and you have to blitz to make it successful.