2020 Class reminds me of 2015 Class

[longtimer]

Remember that great class? Hutton,Fleming,Wagner, Jones Williams and Moss! Big class that took us to another level. This 2020 class just feels kind of like the same thing. I really don't see Foster being added which makes this a very difficult effort to get excited about the future of Iowa basketball
Im sure most of you dont remember Dick Schultz who took over the program after Ralph Miller left for Oregon State. Very nice guy who I think ended up as NCAA Director maybe but recruited UNI type talent to play in the Big Ten. Really bad teams! I just get the same feeling I had back then. Hope I'm wrong but it sure looks bleak to me

 

[revkev73]

Remember that great class? Hutton,Fleming,Wagner, Jones Williams and Moss! Big class that took us to another level. This 2020 class just feels kind of like the same thing. I really don't see Foster being added which makes this a very difficult effort to get excited about the future of Iowa basketball
Im sure most of you dont remember Dick Schultz who took over the program after Ralph Miller left for Oregon State. Very nice guy who I think ended up as NCAA Director maybe but recruited UNI type talent to play in the Big Ten. Really bad teams! I just get the same feeling I had back then. Hope I'm wrong but it sure looks bleak to me

It is always the darkest, before the dawn!

 

[NikeHawk21]

If the class ends the way it is today it’s hard to get very excited that’s for sure. But let’s see what happens with XF and Ogundele first before closing the book.


As an aside, I sometimes laugh when I look back at the 2015 class. At the time I had myself talked into it being a quality class. For one we were in desperate need of some athletes so between Wagner, Hutton, and Moss I thought we found some. We thought it would hopefully start a Chicago pipeline (didn’t really happen). Then we had Fleming who was the oak hill kid with a Florida offer. Looking back on it the class wasn’t highly rated, and there was a reason for it, just funny to think about.

 

[JG10Hawk]

If the class ends the way it is today it’s hard to get very excited that’s for sure. But let’s see what happens with XF and Ogundele first before closing the book.


As an aside, I sometimes laugh when I look back at the 2015 class. At the time I had myself talked into it being a quality class. For one we were in desperate need of some athletes so between Wagner, Hutton, and Moss I thought we found some. We thought it would hopefully start a Chicago pipeline (didn’t really happen). Then we had Fleming who was the oak hill kid with a Florida offer. Looking back on it the class wasn’t highly rated, and there was a reason for it, just funny to think about.

Lol yep. I had myself talked into believing Fleming would be of the Matt Gatens mold(similar body types and supposedly he could shoot it) and Hutton being the big time lock down defender we all wanted(young Oladipo comparisons before he gained an offensive game). Boy was that a big swing and a miss on both fronts.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Lol yep. I had myself talked into believing Fleming would be of the Matt Gatens mold(similar body types and supposedly he could shoot it) and Hutton being the big time lock down defender we all wanted(young Oladipo comparisons before he gained an offensive game). Boy was that a big swing and a miss on both fronts.

I’ve also come to realize that the Chicago recruiting isn’t as fruitful as it’s made to be. Sure they produce some top end blue chippers that go to the blue bloods, but many of the other guys tend to be highly overrated, propped up by the fact that they play in Chicago. I think Illinois basketball learned that the hard way.

 

[JG10Hawk]

I’ve also come to realize that the Chicago recruiting isn’t as fruitful as it’s made to be. Sure they produce some top end blue chippers that go to the blue bloods, but many of the other guys tend to be highly overrated, propped up by the fact that they play in Chicago. I think Illinois basketball learned that the hard way.

I'm beginning to believe this too. I always thought Illinois was a sleeping giant with the supposed talent rich pool to pluck kids from. After Weber's 04-05 team I was thinking he may just have a dynasty on the horizon. Fast forward 15 years now and the program has very little to show for it even with a handful of top 25 recruiting classes. Like you said, most of the top talent goes to the blue bloods and the guys that stay home have been mostly misses.

 

[InGoodCo]

How many heralded classes has Fran had? I am not trying to be contrarian here, but let's be honest, none of Fran's classes have been overwhelming yet he continues to find success compared to their recruiting rankings and expectations. On paper, Iowa has no business going to 4 of the last 6 NCAA's when you look at their roster compared to their peers in the conference. I am not saying there is a Marble Jr, Olaseni, Bohannon or White in this class .... but if we're just being honest with each other here, Fran has had some home run under the radar hits to go along with his complete whiffs. He's proven to me he can at least put a competitive team on the floor more times then not and he does have at least an eye for talent that sometimes other programs don't covet. Now, this doesn't mean I am satisfied or that Iowa is knocking down the door of the Elite 8 or anything....but sometimes you have to look at things from a bigger lens. We have a coach that keeps winning despite recruiting fairly poorly (when you look at rankings anyways) since the day he got here.

 

[Northside Hawk]

I’ve also come to realize that the Chicago recruiting isn’t as fruitful as it’s made to be. Sure they produce some top end blue chippers that go to the blue bloods, but many of the other guys tend to be highly overrated, propped up by the fact that they play in Chicago. I think Illinois basketball learned that the hard way.

Dick Vitale mentioned this decades ago (and being an east coast guy he's going to stick it to Chicago every chance he gets).

But he was right in this case, and mentioned Efrem Winters, Anthony Welch, Teddy Grubbs, and Bernard Randolph among others. Many or most of the players he mentioned came out of the Chicago public league.

Illinois wasn't the only school to learn that the hard way. DePaul's downfall began when they relied too heavily on public league players out of Chicago.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Remember that great class? Hutton,Fleming,Wagner, Jones Williams and Moss! Big class that took us to another level. This 2020 class just feels kind of like the same thing. I really don't see Foster being added which makes this a very difficult effort to get excited about the future of Iowa basketball
Im sure most of you dont remember Dick Schultz who took over the program after Ralph Miller left for Oregon State. Very nice guy who I think ended up as NCAA Director maybe but recruited UNI type talent to play in the Big Ten. Really bad teams! I just get the same feeling I had back then. Hope I'm wrong but it sure looks bleak to me

i think you make a valid point, LT. recruiting is such a game of projection that it can be easily wrong. especially for non experts like myself. so, whether this class winds up like the '15 class or not, the results of this class and the '15 class is solely fran's responsibility and he must be held accountable for the results. that means wins and a lot of them.

 

[JG10Hawk]

How many heralded classes has Fran had? I am not trying to be contrarian here, but let's be honest, none of Fran's classes have been overwhelming yet he continues to find success compared to their recruiting rankings and expectations. On paper, Iowa has no business going to 4 of the last 6 NCAA's when you look at their roster compared to their peers in the conference. I am not saying there is a Marble Jr, Olaseni, Bohannon or White in this class .... but if we're just being honest with each other here, Fran has had some home run under the radar hits to go along with his complete whiffs. He's proven to me he can at least put a competitive team on the floor more times then not and he does have at least an eye for talent that sometimes other programs don't covet. Now, this doesn't mean I am satisfied or that Iowa is knocking down the door of the Elite 8 or anything....but sometimes you have to look at things from a bigger lens. We have a coach that keeps winning despite recruiting fairly poorly (when you look at rankings anyways) since the day he got here.

I don't disagree with this. Fran certainly has overachieved more often than not when it comes to player/team expectations on paper. I think what a lot of fans are complaining about is the what if game. In other words, if he can do what he's done with the recruits he's brought in on paper, what could he do with higher rated recruits? If he could consistently reel in better classes and sprinkle in a few of these under the radar guys, I think fans would be a bit more content with the state of the program. Granted there is always going to be the side of the fan base that is wanting more.

 

[InGoodCo]

I don't disagree with this. Fran certainly has overachieved more often than not when it comes to player/team expectations on paper. I think what a lot of fans are complaining about is the what if game. In other words, if he can do what he's done with the recruits he's brought in on paper, what could he do with higher rated recruits? If he could consistently reel in better classes and sprinkle in a few of these under the radar guys, I think fans would be a bit more content with the state of the program. Granted there is always going to be the side of the fan base that is wanting more.

I am on the side of wanting more fwiw and probably always will be. I am also on the side of letting it happen before I react. Iowa could comfortably make the NCAA this season and then what? All this hand-wringing for nothing? Why the hand-wringing at all? We return an 1st team All B1G caliber player and 2 others who are knocking on that door. This program was just a second away from the sweet 16 and spent 3/4 of last season ranked in the top 25 last year. They beat Cinci in what was basically a home game for them in the NCAA. Again, defying odds and expectations. I just look at differently that's all. We have the 11th or 12th highest paid coach in the conference and our recruiting always falls towards the bottom end .... yet we sit here and say "F Fran he can't coach"

 

[JG10Hawk]

I am on the side of wanting more fwiw and probably always will be. I am also on the side of letting it happen before I react. Iowa could comfortably make the NCAA this season and then what? All this hand-wringing for nothing? Why the hand-wringing at all? We return an 1st team All B1G caliber player and 2 others who are knocking on that door. This program was just a second away from the sweet 16 and spent 3/4 of last season ranked in the top 25 last year. They beat Cinci in what was basically a home game for them in the NCAA. Again, defying odds and expectations. I just look at differently that's all. We have the 11th or 12th highest paid coach in the conference and our recruiting always falls towards the bottom end .... yet we sit here and say "F Fran he can't coach"

I'm in the same boat as you for the most part. I tend to be a cautious optimist. By that I mean I like to see guys play before I judge and give Fran the benefit of the doubt probably more than I should in some people's eyes. I also am not one that I would consider a homer/kool aid drinker. I look at the stats, I look at the experience. Hell I expected them to be around .500 in the conference last year when almost everyone was all doom and gloom. I expect about the same this season even with the losses of Cook, Moss, and Baer. Tons of experience back even with the unknowns at guard.

I don't expect Fran to turn the program into a blue blood. I expect his teams to be consistently competitive in the conference. I expect them to make the tournament 3 out of 4 years and sprinkle in a nice run to the sweet 16 every once in awhile. Do I want better? Hell yes I do but I'm not gonna ask for something that's highly unlikely to happen. As long as the program doesn't fall completely flat like they did 2 years ago, Fran's job should be perfectly safe in my opinion.

Fran certainly has had his misses but he's also had his fair share of nice hits. I actually like the thought of the Murray twins after their supposed growth spurt and added strength. Give me 6'7" - 6'8" wings that can shoot it any day of the week. If they have even average athleticism that's a plus makeup to work with.

I'll wait until this class steps foot on the floor before I make any definitive statements about whether it's a failure or not.

 

[BILLYBOBSTEXAS]

Assistants can make or break a HC. I'm not sure what to make of Fran's. Fran cannot personally recruit every player. He needs Foster plus maybe one other to make this class better than acceptable.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

I basically agree with everything I read above. My take:

Fran has done a solid job of getting the program back on his feet, though the recruiting has been hit and miss, peaks and valleys.

Woody and Gesell were critical commits though I think we mostly all agree that those guys didn't quite live up to their 4* rankings. But at the time, they were huge gets for the program. They were still contributors, though.

Let me throw out a few "what if's":

• What if Aaron White doesn't go from a 2-3* recruit to the program's #2 all time scorer? Most don't.
• What if Peter Jok doesn't get hurt and fall off everyone's radar, and goes to a blue blood instead of Iowa?
• What if Devyn Marble decided he didn't want to play for Lickliter just because his dad played at Iowa? He also really outperformed his "ranking" as well.
• What if Jarrod Uthoff didn't decide to leave Wisconsin?

If not for all that, maybe Fran finds other options and everything turns out fine, or maybe he doesn't and the first 5 years are a total failure and he's shown the door. I give full credit to Fran for finding these guys and taking advantage, absolutely. But that's a lot of talent that IMO was fairly fortuitous and could easily have not been available. But it is what it is, and it still counts. After that, there were a couple of disastrous recruiting classes. Fleming, Wagner, Uhl, etc. etc. No need to elaborate. But some better hits as of late: Cook, Moss, JBo, Wieskamp, etc. This newest class has me very much once again very concerned, though, a'la 2014 or so, as the OP mentioned. Zero recruits to this point in the 2020 class that have even a single P5 offer besides Iowa.

As for the program, I feel Fran has things CLOSE to where Mr. Davis had them though maybe just a hair short. If he keeps getting us back to the dance with more regularity, I'll be more comfortable saying that we ARE back to that point. I want to see it sustained a little longer, though.

I don't put a lot of stock in the "we were a second away from the Sweet 16" stuff, though. Upsets happen, or almost happen, all the time in the tournament. And, Steve Alford took SWMS to the Sweet 16 and we all know how things worked out for him at Iowa. I look more at full seasons than I do what happens in 1 or 2 tournament games. It's fluky. That said, it does irk the crap out of me that we have just ONE Sweet 16 since 1988. That speaks volumes about the program when you look at that long time frame.

Fran hasn't really raised the bar, but he is hardly the embarrassment some make him out to be, either. Solid coach, just hasn't gotten us to that next level. I honestly don't think he ever will, unless recruiting picks up. Getting his teams to play good defense wouldn't hurt, either...

 

[InGoodCo]

I'm in the same boat as you for the most part. I tend to be a cautious optimist. By that I mean I like to see guys play before I judge and give Fran the benefit of the doubt probably more than I should in some people's eyes. I also am not one that I would consider a homer/kool aid drinker. I look at the stats, I look at the experience. Hell I expected them to be around .500 in the conference last year when almost everyone was all doom and gloom. I expect about the same this season even with the losses of Cook, Moss, and Baer. Tons of experience back even with the unknowns at guard.

I don't expect Fran to turn the program into a blue blood. I expect his teams to be consistently competitive in the conference. I expect them to make the tournament 3 out of 4 years and sprinkle in a nice run to the sweet 16 every once in awhile. Do I want better? Hell yes I do but I'm not gonna ask for something that's highly unlikely to happen. As long as the program doesn't fall completely flat like they did 2 years ago, Fran's job should be perfectly safe in my opinion.

Fran certainly has had his misses but he's also had his fair share of nice hits. I actually like the thought of the Murray twins after their supposed growth spurt and added strength. Give me 6'7" - 6'8" wings that can shoot it any day of the week. If they have even average athleticism that's a plus makeup to work with.

I'll wait until this class steps foot on the floor before I make any definitive statements about whether it's a failure or not.

I just feel like we are going to be better then everyone expects again, mostly because our coach has given me those expectations based off history. 2 years ago was inexcusable, but seems like an outlier to me at this point. Moss and Cook both had pretty poor efficiency metrics. They were both good players, but had several issues including turnovers and defense. Even Jordan had league average efficiency metrics and his offensive rating completely negated his poor defense. If Garza and Wieskamp continue to play like they have and a couple of new guys are just competent enough to not be negatives, Iowa is going to be in a good place. That's just my opinion. This team with Jordan is good enough to make the NCAA again, which with the departures from last year would have to be considered a good step and trend for the program. Only time will tell but IMO the fan base acts like we're a doormat or something...Iowa has a healthy basketball program at the current moment... it hasn't won enough for me either, but let's not act like it's not overachieving big picture instead of underachieving like everyone wants us to believe on here.

 

[Northside Hawk]

I basically agree with everything I read above. My take:

Fran has done a solid job of getting the program back on his feet, though the recruiting has been hit and miss, peaks and valleys.

Woody and Gesell were huge commits though I think we mostly all agree that those guys didn't quite live up to their 4* rankings. But at the time, they were huge gets for the program. They were still contributors, though.

Let me throw out a few "what if's":

What if Aaron White doesn't go from a 2-3* recruit to the program's #2 all time scorer? Most don't.
What if Peter Jok doesn't get hurt and fall off everyone's radar, and goes to a blue blood instead of Iowa?
What if Devyn Marble decided he didn't want to play for Lickliter just because his dad played at Iowa?
What if Jarrod Uthoff didn't decide to leave Wisconsin?

If not for all that, maybe Fran finds other options and everything turns out fine, or maybe he doesn't and the first 5 years are a total failure and he's shown the door. I give full credit to Fran for finding these guys and taking advantage, absolutely. But that's a lot of talent that IMO was fairly fortuitous and could easily have not been available. But it is what it is, and it still counts. After that, there were a couple of disastrous recruiting classes. Fleming, Wagner, Uhl, etc. etc. No need to elaborate. But some better hits as of late: Cook, Moss, JBo, Wieskamp, etc. This newest class has me very much once again very concerned, though, a'la 2014 or so, as the OP mentioned. Zero recruits to this point in the 2020 class that have even a single P5 offer besides Iowa.

As for the program, I feel Fran has things CLOSE to where Mr. Davis had them though maybe just a hair short. If he keeps getting us back to the dance with more regularity, I'll be more comfortable saying that we ARE back to that point. I want to see it sustained a little longer, though.

I don't put a lot of stock in the "we were a second away from the Sweet 16" stuff, though. Upsets happen, or almost happen, all the time in the tournament. And, Steve Alford took SWMS to the Sweet 16 and we all know how things worked out for him at Iowa. I look more at full seasons than I do what happens in 1 or 2 tournament games. It's fluky. That said, it does irk the crap out of me that we have just ONE Sweet 16 since 1988. That speaks volumes about the program when you look at that long time frame.

Fran hasn't really raised the bar, but he is hardly the embarrassment some make him out to be, either. Solid coach, just hasn't gotten us to that next level. I'm not sure he ever will, unless recruiting picks up.

His temper is an embarrassment, and not just on the court. I was in Cedar Falls for an eighth grade tournament last January and IC West played the night before. Fran, Margaret, and their posse were sitting three rows in front of us. From the bleachers, Fran was yelling stuff that could have gotten him T'd up.

Ive heard other stories from AAU tournaments, and tournaments up at JustAGame in Wisconsin Dells. To be fair I've heard similar stories about Tanya Alford and it probably goes on with other coaches watching their kids play, so it's probably not insular to Fran. Still, he seems like a petulant person. Just watching him in the line at the concession stand in Cedar Falls he had a look like a grizzly bear who wanted to take someone's head off.

 

[InGoodCo]

I basically agree with everything I read above. My take:

Fran has done a solid job of getting the program back on his feet, though the recruiting has been hit and miss, peaks and valleys.

Woody and Gesell were critical commits though I think we mostly all agree that those guys didn't quite live up to their 4* rankings. But at the time, they were huge gets for the program. They were still contributors, though.

Let me throw out a few "what if's":

• What if Aaron White doesn't go from a 2-3* recruit to the program's #2 all time scorer? Most don't.
• What if Peter Jok doesn't get hurt and fall off everyone's radar, and goes to a blue blood instead of Iowa?
• What if Devyn Marble decided he didn't want to play for Lickliter just because his dad played at Iowa? He also really outperformed his "ranking" as well.
• What if Jarrod Uthoff didn't decide to leave Wisconsin?

If not for all that, maybe Fran finds other options and everything turns out fine, or maybe he doesn't and the first 5 years are a total failure and he's shown the door. I give full credit to Fran for finding these guys and taking advantage, absolutely. But that's a lot of talent that IMO was fairly fortuitous and could easily have not been available. But it is what it is, and it still counts. After that, there were a couple of disastrous recruiting classes. Fleming, Wagner, Uhl, etc. etc. No need to elaborate. But some better hits as of late: Cook, Moss, JBo, Wieskamp, etc. This newest class has me very much once again very concerned, though, a'la 2014 or so, as the OP mentioned. Zero recruits to this point in the 2020 class that have even a single P5 offer besides Iowa.

As for the program, I feel Fran has things CLOSE to where Mr. Davis had them though maybe just a hair short. If he keeps getting us back to the dance with more regularity, I'll be more comfortable saying that we ARE back to that point. I want to see it sustained a little longer, though.

I don't put a lot of stock in the "we were a second away from the Sweet 16" stuff, though. Upsets happen, or almost happen, all the time in the tournament. And, Steve Alford took SWMS to the Sweet 16 and we all know how things worked out for him at Iowa. I look more at full seasons than I do what happens in 1 or 2 tournament games. It's fluky. That said, it does irk the crap out of me that we have just ONE Sweet 16 since 1988. That speaks volumes about the program when you look at that long time frame.

Fran hasn't really raised the bar, but he is hardly the embarrassment some make him out to be, either. Solid coach, just hasn't gotten us to that next level. I honestly don't think he ever will, unless recruiting picks up.

Fair take and pretty much where I am at with things. I don't know if Fran can get us to the next level. It doesn't appear so, but for Iowa, how often has it been to next level? I don't know what the next level is? Cause I've never been there. How can I expect it? I know what I do expect and in my own mind as far as supporting him as our coach. He is coaching for his job every season with me. Make the dance, I'm happy. Don't, I won't be. Missing the dance this season with JW, JB and LG will be an absolute fail and reason to be fired IMO. (even tho he won't be)

 

[InGoodCo]

His temper is an embarrassment, and not just on the court. I was in Cedar Falls for an eighth grade tournament last January and IC West played the night before. Fran, Margaret, and their posse were sitting three rows in front of us. From the bleachers, Fran was yelling stuff that could have gotten him T'd up.

Ive heard other stories from AAU tournaments, and tournaments up at JustAGame in Wisconsin Dells. To be fair I've heard similar stories about Tanya Alford and it probably goes on with other coaches watching their kids play, so it's probably not insular to Fran. Still, he seems like a petulant person. Just watching him in the line at the concession stand in Cedar Falls he had a look like a grizzly bear who wanted to take someone's head off.

His temper is an embarrassment at times and I mostly hate it when it involves the media.... but I am never going to not want a fiery coach with an attitude. That's who I want. The asshole. The guy who doesn't give AF what you think about him or how he does things that just wants to win. Iowa's had way too many nice guys. I'm not calling Fran great, but you can't name too many great coaches that don't have tempers and aren't assholes.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

Fair take and pretty much where I am at with things. I don't know if Fran can get us to the next level. It doesn't appear so, but for Iowa, how often has it been to next level? I don't know what the next level is? Cause I've never been there. How can I expect it? I know what I do expect and in my own mind as far as supporting him as our coach. He is coaching for his job every season with me. Make the dance, I'm happy. Don't, I won't be. Missing the dance this season with JW, JB and LG will be an absolute fail and reason to be fired IMO.

Yeah, for me, the next level was basically the 1987-88 tournaments. Basically just a year or two, so obviously not the norm. I'm too young to remember Lute and the Final Four run, sadly.

I don't expect to be there all the time - just here and there would be nice. We had a shot in 2006 until NWST and then a few years ago where we were a projected 1 seed in January before the meltdown. And maybe 1992-93 until we lost Chris Street.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

His temper is an embarrassment, and not just on the court. I was in Cedar Falls for an eighth grade tournament last January and IC West played the night before. Fran, Margaret, and their posse were sitting three rows in front of us. From the bleachers, Fran was yelling stuff that could have gotten him T'd up.

Ive heard other stories from AAU tournaments, and tournaments up at JustAGame in Wisconsin Dells. To be fair I've heard similar stories about Tanya Alford and it probably goes on with other coaches watching their kids play, so it's probably not insular to Fran. Still, he seems like a petulant person. Just watching him in the line at the concession stand in Cedar Falls he had a look like a grizzly bear who wanted to take someone's head off.

Fair enough, but I was talking about on-court results when saying he is not an embarrassment. His temper rubs a lot of people the wrong way, sure. Myself, I really don't care just as long as he wins and doesn't go all Bob Knight and start choking players.