BigD
Well-Known Member
The number 1's have little respect for the number 2's. Number 2's have animosity toward the number 1's. However, life and this country is full of the number 2's.
So Rob Howe wrote an article....
- Thread starter Hawkfnntn
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Gander Hawk
Well-Known Member
IMHO, I don't think firing Doyle was Kirk's decision.
Fryowa
Administrator
Doyle did a really long sit down interview with a reporter from Des Moines a year or two ago, and I got the impression that Kirk probably had at least some say in it.
Doyle was asked if he has talked to anyone from Iowa since he got fired and his answer was no. Said from the night before he got fired until the day of the interview he had not had a single text or communication from Kirk whatsoever. Now I know the U probably told KF not to communicate with him because of the lawsuit, but that's been over for a while and Doyle sounded pretty jilted by it. If they were buds and Kirk didn't have any hand in it, there would've been some communications at some point whether official or not. Even if they couldn't admit publicly to conversing, Doyle wouldn't have said so emphatically that no one had contacted him. He was somewhat emotional.
Doyle deserved to get fired 100%, but KF also used him as the whipping boy to save Wallace and BF.
Fryowa
Administrator
Really petty if you ask me.
Yeah the convos with Barta and KF about this at the time woulda been fascinating to know. Cause I'm sure that Barta and the powers that be after all that demanded that they had to get a pound of flesh. KF firing BF was a complete non starter and letting go of Wallace and Doyle woulda been a tough pill to swallow. KF leans on his assistants a shit ton maybe more then most.
We all know that Doyle was KFs right hand man for the duration of his time there. He was #2 within the organization and it wasn't even close. But he was who HAD to go. I woulda also liked to have been privy to the convos between him and KF throughout that. Cause that bridge wasn't burnt to the ground it was blown up with a nuke. It's easy to see how the hard feelings would emerge from all that but surely Doyle could see that firing him wasn't what KF wanted to do. So maybe that's the disconnect. He thought KF did have a choice and Doyle felt like he was thrown under the bus.
Wallace has shown to be a good coach and recruiter. Maybe it's just that simple for KF to where he wasn't going dump him either. We've had pretty dang good LB rooms over his time here and with him being the ultimate company yes man to KF it just endears him to him that much.
When we talk about what ifs I'd certainly say that that fork in the road for the program was a mighty mighty big one. Had KF let those guys all go how would things have gone? Offensively getting rid of BF could've only been a good thing. Replacing Wallace woulda been problematic. Maybe Hodge woulda been brought on to be LB coach instead of TEs something like that. Hard to say.
Fryowa
Administrator
FYI, don't start shit on this thread going after what you think forum members' intentions are. That's a good way to start an argument and it's not happening here. If you want to rant and whine and piss and moan about members' opinions go do it on the OT Open Discussion board. This isn't a thread for people who are mad about what other people think.
Only warning. This thread has been EXTREMELY civilized to this point and I'm not ruining it. Your post just now was exactly the kind of thing that turned HN into chaos during the scandal and COVID, but now you have an outlet in OT where you can yell at the trees if you want. Literally no one here cares about your opinion of the board or it's members.
Hawkboys
Well-Known Member
I know what number 2 means...
Hawkboys
Well-Known Member
Is that Drew's dad?
Fryowa
Administrator
Last time I'm going to mention this before a few dumbasses unfortunately are going to have to make me nuke this thread.
No arguing with other posters. I've had to delete 5 posts so far this morning of people whining "nana nana boo boo" at other members like toddlers.
Take it to OT if you wanna do that. This isn't turning back into 2020 again, sorry.
No arguing with other posters. I've had to delete 5 posts so far this morning of people whining "nana nana boo boo" at other members like toddlers.
Take it to OT if you wanna do that. This isn't turning back into 2020 again, sorry.
HawkeyeDug
Well-Known Member
That is fair. I did not mean to disturb the hive.
I do hope that people read the report. I think t it is pretty damning. All the coaching side has is "I didn't know", "Nobody told me", and victim blaming. A good number of things to consider, from all sides, that I think should be discussed. But, I know how that goes and I already had my warning.
Fryowa
Administrator
We created the OT Open board just for that purpose. If you start a thread there you'll get the kind of discussion and debate you were looking for. I non-sarcastically encourage you to use it...best of both worlds for members who do or don't want to read it.
HawkeyeDug
Well-Known Member
If another thread gets started there I might check in. I doubt I find the type of discussion I am looking for.
I don't wish to get into politics. Just what that report means, what we think about it, how that makes us feel about, and why we have these thought and feelings and if they are rational/right.
That's a tough order to fill.
Actually, I will start a thread.
NCHawker
Well-Known Member
Ya you're right. I went too far there. appologies to the poster and everyone else.
I don't either. He wouldn't have fired Doyle much the same way he never woulda gotten rid of BF if he wasn't forced to. (it took alot of on the field ineptness and a new AD to finally get rid of BF) Doyle probably thinks KF didn't put up a fight to try and keep him not knowing how those convos between Barta and whomever above him was putting the pressure on went woulda been interesting. That's what I'd have liked to have been a fly on the wall for. What was KFs thought process to it all. Obviously his kid could do no wrong and Wallace ended up staying. It felt really scape goatish from where I sit to have gotten rid of Doyle and nobody else. But I don't think I know the half of it.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
A lot to unpack with this.
First, Rob's disdain for Ferentz was fairly obvious to anyone on the site for the last 10 years. His remarks were tempered to a point by the constraints inherent with being a sports reporter, but between the lines (and occasionally within the lines), his sentiments, particularly those pertaining to the racial saga, were readily apparent.
I agree with Fry: This is not a reporting article, it's an opinion piece, one that reads as a cathartic, "I finally get a chance to get this shit off my chest not caring if you like it or not." statement.
Rob is entitled to his opinion, which I will respect, especially after he shared his less than ideal upbringing and the barriers he had to overcome to get where he is. Some scars are with you your entire life and, for good or bad, can shape how you view the world.
That said, if we view what happened within the program from a broader contextual standpoint, and critically examine the facts and not just the emotional responses, what transpired pales in comparison to events that have occurred in numerous other programs over the years. That is not an excuse whatsoever, but nuances and intent are important factors to consider in situations like this.
I honestly have a very hard time viewing Kirk as a racist individual, and (cognitive dissonance or not) my gut says that he is a genuinely good person at his core. But, he made several mistakes during that time period by, first, not reading the room, then by his lack of appropriate action when the wheels started falling off.
Where I really fault him is in his lack of thoughtful response when players first approached him with concerns about the program, specifically as it related to a growing perception by black players that they were feeling pressured to conform to a 'white' subculture. While I highly doubt that his lack of meaningful response and/or institution of constructive changes were rooted in bigoted ideals, he nevertheless set the stage for the downward spiral that unfolded. A little empathy and demonstrative changes would have gone a long way towards saving him and the entire program a ton of embarrassment and harm.
When examining the actual facts of what transpired, the word "perception" above becomes extremely pertinent. I said at the time that many of the statements attributed to Doyle where very similar to the stuff I heard from coaches all the time growing up. Many of those statements were part and parcel of what coaches said to football players, not necessarily to "black football players." Is a statement not meant to be racial is perceived as racist, does that make it racist? In other words, does perception trump reality?
To me, what happened with Wallace and Kallenberger is more abhorrent. The intent there is clear. The perception is the reality.
One last thing, I differ with Rob on using the lawsuit settlement as further proof of program racial bias. Many of the allegations that were put forth in that suit fell into that perception conundrum . If that case had been litigated, I honestly believe that the university would have prevailed, but to what end? The benefit of the victory wouldn't have even come close to the damage suffered, and their attorney knew just that. For the university, settling was the lesser of two evils.
First, Rob's disdain for Ferentz was fairly obvious to anyone on the site for the last 10 years. His remarks were tempered to a point by the constraints inherent with being a sports reporter, but between the lines (and occasionally within the lines), his sentiments, particularly those pertaining to the racial saga, were readily apparent.
I agree with Fry: This is not a reporting article, it's an opinion piece, one that reads as a cathartic, "I finally get a chance to get this shit off my chest not caring if you like it or not." statement.
Rob is entitled to his opinion, which I will respect, especially after he shared his less than ideal upbringing and the barriers he had to overcome to get where he is. Some scars are with you your entire life and, for good or bad, can shape how you view the world.
That said, if we view what happened within the program from a broader contextual standpoint, and critically examine the facts and not just the emotional responses, what transpired pales in comparison to events that have occurred in numerous other programs over the years. That is not an excuse whatsoever, but nuances and intent are important factors to consider in situations like this.
I honestly have a very hard time viewing Kirk as a racist individual, and (cognitive dissonance or not) my gut says that he is a genuinely good person at his core. But, he made several mistakes during that time period by, first, not reading the room, then by his lack of appropriate action when the wheels started falling off.
Where I really fault him is in his lack of thoughtful response when players first approached him with concerns about the program, specifically as it related to a growing perception by black players that they were feeling pressured to conform to a 'white' subculture. While I highly doubt that his lack of meaningful response and/or institution of constructive changes were rooted in bigoted ideals, he nevertheless set the stage for the downward spiral that unfolded. A little empathy and demonstrative changes would have gone a long way towards saving him and the entire program a ton of embarrassment and harm.
When examining the actual facts of what transpired, the word "perception" above becomes extremely pertinent. I said at the time that many of the statements attributed to Doyle where very similar to the stuff I heard from coaches all the time growing up. Many of those statements were part and parcel of what coaches said to football players, not necessarily to "black football players." Is a statement not meant to be racial is perceived as racist, does that make it racist? In other words, does perception trump reality?
To me, what happened with Wallace and Kallenberger is more abhorrent. The intent there is clear. The perception is the reality.
One last thing, I differ with Rob on using the lawsuit settlement as further proof of program racial bias. Many of the allegations that were put forth in that suit fell into that perception conundrum . If that case had been litigated, I honestly believe that the university would have prevailed, but to what end? The benefit of the victory wouldn't have even come close to the damage suffered, and their attorney knew just that. For the university, settling was the lesser of two evils.
Very well articulated... If you're not a writer/reporter I hope you're doing something amazing with your life cause you certainly know how to put your thoughts down.
I won't go over everything you said as I've already said a bunch. But I'll touch on the last thing you said. I totally agree that the end result went the way it did due to this. Dragging it out and having a trial with KF and Barta having to get up there to testify was pretty much a non starter. As fascinating as having all the names involved putting their stories on the record and seeing what a judge/jury woulda thought about it it just wasn't ever going to happen. No way no how. And for many involved it was nothing more then a cash grab anyway so there we are.
NorthKCHawk
Well-Known Member
As our resident lawyer, this is 100% the case. I settle bullshit cases on behalf of my clients on a near daily basis. The truth is, I cost a lot of money and a lot of times it is a better business decision to pay the other side a little bit of money to make him go away, than pay me a lot of money to prove you are right.
To be clear, I take no position on the validity of the lawsuit against KF and the school. I did not take a deep dive into that at the time, but the fact that money was paid to settle a lawsuit has zero to do with whether KF or the school actually did anything materially wrong.
HawkPowerlifter
Well-Known Member
I saw the original post and article. I bit. Read it. Immediately, looked at it as a hit piece. Timing sucked and it definitely seemed to be sour grapes on Howe's end. I am a KF guy. A KF apologist.
However, much like Fry said, good people make made choices or do bad things. I do not necessarily agree with how it all shook out. The optics did not look good. Agreed the Wallace/Kallenberger thing was horrible.
I am wondering that potentially Doyle was the lowest hanging fruit. Gruff fella. Strength and Conditioning coach that pushes athletes and was old school. It was probably easiest to find the most dirt on him.
With we are all honest, KF had blind spots. He allowed coaches to do their bidding. Maybe his trust and not having his fingers on the pulse also were errors on his part. We can start a whole another thread regarding about a blind spot about a father for his child. It became very uncomfortable. The question is if our offense was firing on all cylinders and we were winning, would there have been an issue?
I watched the interview with Doyle. I hated it for him. Hated it for everyone. I'm curious if attorneys got involved and recommended ceasing any sort of communication amongst one another due to potential further litigation or incrimination. I'm guessing KF was warned to instructed to remain mum and do what he was told.
As for Doyle and KF and their relationship, it is unfortunate. And likely after the dust settled, Doyle gets fired. And it probably was hard to start any sort of conversation up after all that happened.
The social climate at the time also I think contributed to the situation. Would it have happened otherwise? Tough to say.
Like many, I put it in our rearview and moved forward. Changes were made. It became a learning moment for KF, the staff and the program. I don't believe KF is a racist. I think you sometimes have to look at the totality or body of work of an individual, and from that I see much more positive KF has done for the program in contrasts to a mistake. But as we all know, it's easy to focus and amplify the negative.
I've probably already said too much, and probably should have let it go, but it really sat with me all weekend that I felt like this was just a hit piece by Howe. He has every right to write and share his opinion on things.
However, much like Fry said, good people make made choices or do bad things. I do not necessarily agree with how it all shook out. The optics did not look good. Agreed the Wallace/Kallenberger thing was horrible.
I am wondering that potentially Doyle was the lowest hanging fruit. Gruff fella. Strength and Conditioning coach that pushes athletes and was old school. It was probably easiest to find the most dirt on him.
With we are all honest, KF had blind spots. He allowed coaches to do their bidding. Maybe his trust and not having his fingers on the pulse also were errors on his part. We can start a whole another thread regarding about a blind spot about a father for his child. It became very uncomfortable. The question is if our offense was firing on all cylinders and we were winning, would there have been an issue?
I watched the interview with Doyle. I hated it for him. Hated it for everyone. I'm curious if attorneys got involved and recommended ceasing any sort of communication amongst one another due to potential further litigation or incrimination. I'm guessing KF was warned to instructed to remain mum and do what he was told.
As for Doyle and KF and their relationship, it is unfortunate. And likely after the dust settled, Doyle gets fired. And it probably was hard to start any sort of conversation up after all that happened.
The social climate at the time also I think contributed to the situation. Would it have happened otherwise? Tough to say.
Like many, I put it in our rearview and moved forward. Changes were made. It became a learning moment for KF, the staff and the program. I don't believe KF is a racist. I think you sometimes have to look at the totality or body of work of an individual, and from that I see much more positive KF has done for the program in contrasts to a mistake. But as we all know, it's easy to focus and amplify the negative.
I've probably already said too much, and probably should have let it go, but it really sat with me all weekend that I felt like this was just a hit piece by Howe. He has every right to write and share his opinion on things.
