Defending Fran's recruiting

[SnapBack2]

I get why people are making Hoiberg the benchmark to compare how Fran has done at Iowa, because he coaches only a few hours away in Ames. But if that's your benchmark, only about 5% coaches are outperforming. Hoiberg has done a phenomenal job, and is a great coach. I think (hope) he will be in the NBA soon. Fran may not be getting to where fans want him to be as fast as they would like, but he is still pushing the program in the right direction.

 

[PCHawk]

I get why people are making Hoiberg the benchmark to compare how Fran has done at Iowa, because he coaches only a few hours away in Ames. But if that's your benchmark, only about 5% coaches are outperforming. Hoiberg has done a phenomenal job, and is a great coach. I think (hope) he will be in the NBA soon. Fran may not be getting to where fans want him to be as fast as they would like, but he is still pushing the program in the right direction.

Exactly. You don't run off a coach that is still moving a program up in hopes that you can find someone to move it up faster. Especially the way the big 10 is right now. You would need a top 10 coach nationally to make us a program that is constantly at the top of the conference.

 

[lightning1]

Serious question here. What do coaches do to develop guards? I can see how they develop post players with footwork and post moves. But guards is so much about natural ability. I feel like it's comparable to developing a runningback in football. That position is mostly about natural ability. Is Washpun really a better scorer because his coach developed his shooting?

I agree. I don't think you can "develop" a guards shooting. What's more important in recruiting guards is their mental toughness and that's harder to do. A guard that can put 30 pts up per night in high school, won't necessarily translate to being tough enough to do it against top flight talent in college. A guard with ice in his veins that doesn't hesitate to fire. That fights and fights to get his shot off. Matt Gatens is a great example of that.
Up to this point, I'd say Fran has failed to recruit mentally tough guards, beyond Marble.

 

[lightning1]

You can't compare how Hoiberg is doing things at Ames to how well it would work at Iowa. Iowa has higher admission standards than Ames, or Ames will simply make more exceptions than Iowa. The Ames police will work with Hoiberg. The IC police won't work with anyone. All situations are not created equally. Trust me.
And that's not a knock on Hoiberg or Ames. It's a different school in a different conference.

 

[PCHawk]

You can't compare how Hoiberg is doing things at Ames to how well it would work at Iowa. Iowa has higher admission standards than Ames, or Ames will simply make more exceptions than Iowa. The Ames police will work with Hoiberg. The IC police won't work with anyone. All situations are not created equally. Trust me.
And that's not a knock on Hoiberg or Ames. It's a different school in a different conference.

Even if Fran wanted to do it, that ship has sailed. Fred has already cornered the transfer market, at least in the state of iowa.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

You have to take some chances on some borderline character kids and roll the dice. Iowa has choir boys up and down the lineup, no grit. They need some beer drinkers and fighters.

Amen. I've been saying that for years. Until Iowa becomes Duke, Kentucky, etc. and has the tradition where they can pretty much have their pick of the litter, you are going to have to be a little less picky when it comes to who you're recruiting, if you want to have some talent in the program, that is. Otherwise, be prepared to live with average or worse.

I'm not sure of Iowa's exact admissions standards, but it's not exactly an Ivy League school we're talking about. I can't believe they are THAT hamstrung when it comes to recruiting players that can even get in.

The "right kids, the right way" stuff only flies for so long before it starts to ring hollow.

 

[ryno]

I don't think we can consistently win at the level we are recruiting. Our only Top 150 recruits are Iowans. Gessel, JO, and Uthoff were more 100 to 150 guys.

We haven't landed a meaningful out of state recruit on this team. The 2014 class was a fail. We had to land better players than Dickerson and Ellenson, and carrying over a scholarship.

This next class is interesting. There is more athleticism, but still not many highly recruited kids. We can't keep expecting to beat good teams with players other teams did not want. And we can't be so dependent on the state of iowa as our scource for good recruits.

People complain about lack of shooters, but in my view it is lack of dribble drive threats at the wing positions. This team has no legitimate Big 10 wing. We have no player that threatens teams off the dribble. And we have no player that can create his own shot from the perimeter. Those are not skills you coach. Those are skills you recruit and Fran simply hasn't recruited players with those skills.

We have ZERO guys 6'5" and under who are a threat off the bounce. Even if these guys get an open shot, they can't hit them anyway. That is the biggest issue we have currently.

 

[Knight78]

The reason I give him a free pass on those 2 is because it's their shooting that is the reason they haven't worked out. He couldn't have forseen they would shoot so bad nor can he coach them into making shots.

Absolutely correct, PCHawk. He has drawn up some nice plays for both Mike and Josh. Both have gotten numerous open looks at the basket and not made the shot. Mike is making a better percentage of his shots from 3 this year but Josh, not so much. When the players are not making the open shot the coaches have schemed the players to get, how is that the coach's fault?

 

[Knight78]

Serious question here. What do coaches do to develop guards? I can see how they develop post players with footwork and post moves. But guards is so much about natural ability. I feel like it's comparable to developing a runningback in football. That position is mostly about natural ability. Is Washpun really a better scorer because his coach developed his shooting?

Yes, quickness is a natural ability. There's a TON of stuff that is more than natural ability that coaches can work on. The following are a few skills that are NOT natural ability but have to be learned, usually at the college level where all players are more athletic. (unlike high school where usually the D-I basketball players are the best player on their team, and usually the best player on the floor)
* The ability to deliver the ball to your teammate in the right place for that teammate.
* Being ready to receive the ball so all you have to do is catch and shoot.
* Knowing when to drive and when to shoot and when to pass.
* Knowing when and how to pass to the post (something this team is abysmal at).
* Knowing how to make yourself available for a pass back from the post.
* Knowing your team's defensive philosophy.

These are just a few of the things that my college coach would work on with the guards.

 

[Knight78]

I just don't think shooting, ball handling, and passing are things you coach up. How do you teach someone to be a better passer? Or dribble better? I feel like those are things you improve by being a gym rat. I do agree you can teach them to better understand the game which would help with assists and offensive flow but would it really help you score much?

So the only way to improve these things is to be a gym rat? You don't think there is technique involved? Or footwork? Part of being a better dribbler is to have a consistent height that you are bouncing the ball and to have your off arm in a consistent position (so you don't get called for an arm-bar push off when you are being closely guarded) and to have your eyes up. Part of being a better passer is to have a consistent, proper backspin on your pass so the recipient of that pass knows what to expect; knuckleball passes drift and even as much as 3-4 inches of drift make it difficult to catch and shoot. Bounce passes, a la Mr. Davis, are an art form in and of themselves. Getting your feet into the proper position so the pass isn't "lazy" but crisp is essential and has to be taught, well at least to this team - far too many lazy floater passes by Utoff and White, especially when trying to pass to the post. (And I won't even mention how poorly we feed the post; it's a wonder that Woody and Gabe ever score in to low post) And for my money, the best passer on the team is JO. The passes he has laid out there for teammates are awesome. Do you remember the posterizing run-out dunk Gabe had? Who threw the perfect pass to him? That's right - Oglesby.

And yes, all of these little things will make us score more. A properly delivered pass to the right player at the right time is the difference between making a three point shot and clanging it or not being able to shoot it. And how many three point shots to we clang... or not even take?

 

[Knight78]

I agree. I don't think you can "develop" a guards shooting. What's more important in recruiting guards is their mental toughness and that's harder to do. A guard that can put 30 pts up per night in high school, won't necessarily translate to being tough enough to do it against top flight talent in college. A guard with ice in his veins that doesn't hesitate to fire. That fights and fights to get his shot off. Matt Gatens is a great example of that.
Up to this point, I'd say Fran has failed to recruit mentally tough guards, beyond Marble.

Incorrect. You can develop shooting by coaching. Players have little things they may do when shooting: a hitch here, a delay there, spinning the ball, etc. Good coaching eliminates these. You have a player move and shoot game-type shots.... LOTS of them. I've read biographies of former NBA players and they ALL worked at their shots for up to 8 hours a day for countless days. Elvin Hayes stated he worked on his left block fade-away jump shot for up to 6 hours a day while in high school and college. Think about that - 6 hours a day for just one shot, and what many consider an easy shot at that. THAT is what made him a good shooter.

 

[Tierney]

Incorrect. You can develop shooting by coaching. Players have little things they may do when shooting: a hitch here, a delay there, spinning the ball, etc. Good coaching eliminates these. You have a player move and shoot game-type shots.... LOTS of them. I've read biographies of former NBA players and they ALL worked at their shots for up to 8 hours a day for countless days. Elvin Hayes stated he worked on his left block fade-away jump shot for up to 6 hours a day while in high school and college. T

Woodbury and Olesani have improved their shot by a lot since they have been to Iowa.

 

[PCHawk]

Yes, quickness is a natural ability. There's a TON of stuff that is more than natural ability that coaches can work on. The following are a few skills that are NOT natural ability but have to be learned, usually at the college level where all players are more athletic. (unlike high school where usually the D-I basketball players are the best player on their team, and usually the best player on the floor)
* The ability to deliver the ball to your teammate in the right place for that teammate.
* Being ready to receive the ball so all you have to do is catch and shoot.
* Knowing when to drive and when to shoot and when to pass.
* Knowing when and how to pass to the post (something this team is abysmal at).
* Knowing how to make yourself available for a pass back from the post.
* Knowing your team's defensive philosophy.

These are just a few of the things that my college coach would work on with the guards.

Your point about making yourself available for the pass back from the post is something we are terrible at. You always see guards drift to the open spot when the defense loses track of them and they get a wide open 3. Our guys don't do that either.

 

[TheIowaHawkGuy]

Woke up early:

Perspective.....


It was a bloody disaster, perhaps worse than the Michigan State Thugfest a while ago. When all is said and done we added another loss to our record. We were not ready for them. Perhaps overconfident after the NC win. We fought back and came close to closing it to ten points, which would make the loss less painful. The stats show a different game than I saw. We had more offensive rebounds than they did. Watching the game it didn't appear that way.

They killed us in transition, having players open beyond the arc and under the basket. They completely took our transition game away. We lost by 15, although it was worse than the final score.....


However it is just one game in the season. We have lost to three ranked teams. Iowa State could make the final four this year despite their lack of height. They have two of their best players becoming eligible. Thank the Lord they didn't have them Friday night. They are legitimate. Their only blemish is a nasty lack of class by some players.....

Quite frankly, Iowa could use players like that. Hoiberg is the quintessential "choir boy" player and coach and yet his players are nothing like him. They play with swagger, confidence, attitude, and arrogance. Iowa has no one close to that. The mindset amongst Iowa players has got to change. Sally Mason wouldn't allow it though. Because college athletes are a "nuisance" to her as she said.

 

[jacknicholson]

Quite frankly, Iowa could use players like that. Hoiberg is the quintessential "choir boy" player and coach and yet his players are nothing like him. They play with swagger, confidence, attitude, and arrogance. Iowa has no one close to that. The mindset amongst Iowa players has got to change. Sally Mason wouldn't allow it though. Because college athletes are a "nuisance" to her as she said.

We certainly could play tougher and much more aggressive. Olaseni seems to be putting players on the floor on occasion. Some games we have the confidence and attitude. Need it every game. Also need to get the chemistry back. There were periods during the game that we looked lost....

Iowa doesn't hire coaches that play nasty, tough and aggressive but not nasty. Smashmouth but not nasty. This team should develop a Smashmouth attitude....

 

[jacknicholson]

So the only way to improve these things is to be a gym rat? You don't think there is technique involved? Or footwork? Part of being a better dribbler is to have a consistent height that you are bouncing the ball and to have your off arm in a consistent position (so you don't get called for an arm-bar push off when you are being closely guarded) and to have your eyes up. Part of being a better passer is to have a consistent, proper backspin on your pass so the recipient of that pass knows what to expect; knuckleball passes drift and even as much as 3-4 inches of drift make it difficult to catch and shoot. Bounce passes, a la Mr. Davis, are an art form in and of themselves. Getting your feet into the proper position so the pass isn't "lazy" but crisp is essential and has to be taught, well at least to this team - far too many lazy floater passes by Utoff and White, especially when trying to pass to the post. (And I won't even mention how poorly we feed the post; it's a wonder that Woody and Gabe ever score in to low post) And for my money, the best passer on the team is JO. The passes he has laid out there for teammates are awesome. Do you remember the posterizing run-out dunk Gabe had? Who threw the perfect pass to him? That's right - Oglesby.

And yes, all of these little things will make us score more. A properly delivered pass to the right player at the right time is the difference between making a three point shot and clanging it or not being able to shoot it. And how many three point shots to we clang... or not even take?

Don't forget the pass to Uthoff at the rim that he slammed one handed. Perfect timing....

We certainly could use the bounce pass, very difficult to intercept or stop....

 

[jacknicholson]

Yes, quickness is a natural ability. There's a TON of stuff that is more than natural ability that coaches can work on. The following are a few skills that are NOT natural ability but have to be learned, usually at the college level where all players are more athletic. (unlike high school where usually the D-I basketball players are the best player on their team, and usually the best player on the floor)

* The ability to deliver the ball to your teammate in the right place for that teammate.
* Being ready to receive the ball so all you have to do is catch and shoot.
* Knowing when to drive and when to shoot and when to pass.
* Knowing when and how to pass to the post (something this team is abysmal at).
* Knowing how to make yourself available for a pass back from the post.
* Knowing your team's defensive philosophy.

These are just a few of the things that my college coach would work on with the guards.

The best point guards get the ball to a sharpshooter when he is in his spot, ready to catch an shoot.....

Good points, Knight....

 

[lightning1]

Incorrect. You can develop shooting by coaching. Players have little things they may do when shooting: a hitch here, a delay there, spinning the ball, etc. Good coaching eliminates these. You have a player move and shoot game-type shots.... LOTS of them. I've read biographies of former NBA players and they ALL worked at their shots for up to 8 hours a day for countless days. Elvin Hayes stated he worked on his left block fade-away jump shot for up to 6 hours a day while in high school and college. Think about that - 6 hours a day for just one shot, and what many consider an easy shot at that. THAT is what made him a good shooter.

This isn't the NBA.
Most of that is repetition. 6 to 8 hrs a day of repetition. When you get to college, your shot is pretty much what it is. Flawed or not. The muscle mechanics are ingrained. That's not to say little things can't be corrected through a lot of repetition but this isn't the NBA. College players do not have 6 hrs a day to work on their shot. Classes, homework, study time, practice drills, film study, weight training, etc.

 

[Tierney]

Woodbury and Olesani have improved their shot by a lot since they have been to Iowa.

 

[Knight78]

Quite frankly, Iowa could use players like that. Hoiberg is the quintessential "choir boy" player and coach and yet his players are nothing like him. They play with swagger, confidence, attitude, and arrogance. Iowa has no one close to that. The mindset amongst Iowa players has got to change. Sally Mason wouldn't allow it though. Because college athletes are a "nuisance" to her as she said.

I would disagree. Hoiberg is in the same mold as John Stockton. No, not talent-wise, but in perception. Everyone thought Stockton was a choirboy, that was the perception; in reality he was not afraid at all to stick his nose into the fray and do the dirty work. Fred was the same kind of player. I watched several of his games where opponents were left on the floor from his doing the dirty work. Not a dirty player, but not afraid to do the dirty work.