Why Iowa Basketball Has Suffered, It's Easy

[sportstalent]

Take a look at the recruiting classes Iowa has inked in the past 8 years, is there any wonder why Iowa has suffered?
Didn't make it to campus/transferred are bold
Transfer-In in bold/italic
Underlined is both

2002:
Jeff Horner
Greg Brunner
Josh Rhoades
2003:
Erek Hansen
Mike Henderson
Ben Rand
Nick DeWitz
2004:
JR Angle
Seth Gorney
Carlton Reed
Doug Thomas
Alex Thompson
Adam Haluska
2005:
Tony Freeman
Kurt Looby
Nathan Skinner
2006:
Josh Crawford
Justin Johnson
Tyler Smith
Cyrus Tate
Jamie Vanderbeeken
2007:
Jarryd Cole
Jake Kelly
Jeff Peterson
2008:
Devan Bawinkel
Andrew Brommer
Jermain Davis
Aaron Fuller
Matt Gatens
Anthony Tucker
2009:
Devin Archie
Brennan Cougill
Cully Payne
Eric May

One player I forgot was David Palmer, don't remember what year he came to the program from Seton Hall.

Many of the JUCO players or transfers did well at Iowa, so no real issue there, but they were only in the program for two years, with the exception of Cyrus Tate.
Take a look at the freshman who were contributors for their college career or for four years (basically non-transfers): Horner, Brunner, Henderson (yes he had some issues as a freshman but still contributed), Gorney, Gatens, Payne and May.
That is seven freshman in 7 classes that appear as they are going to contribute for four years.
It is one thing to bring in JUCO players, I have zero issues with that, but you build with four year freshman players and Iowa hasn't done that for quite a while.

 

[BlackGold57]

Not sure this is breaking news and the only reason a program suffers. You might want to compare it to other programs. Not everyone stays and for different reasons. Iowa does not have a consistent top 10 reputation in basketball or football. Coaches, facilities, fan support, draft history, and luck have a lot to do with success and recruiting.

 

[drew003]

Only a few of those kids transferring out were good players. Most transfers were kids that weren't Big 10 players. It all comes down to talent. Successful teams have turn-over, everyone has turn-over in college basketball, but the successful teams simply have more talent. Even stable programs like Purdue/WI have success because of talent.

You just listed a lot of players. Very few were impact Big 10 players, only 25% or so even had average starter Big 10 talent. And I would say about 50% of those kids simply weren't Big 10 talent players. That is our problem.

 

[sportstalent]

Not sure this is breaking news and the only reason a program suffers. You might want to compare it to other programs. Not everyone stays and for different reasons. Iowa does not have a consistent top 10 reputation in basketball or football. Coaches, facilities, fan support, draft history, and luck have a lot to do with success and recruiting.

The rate of turnover on Iowa's roster since Tom Davis left is what has killed the Iowa program, plain and simple. It takes away depth and experience.

 

[sportstalent]

Only a few of those kids transferring out were good players. Most transfers were kids that weren't Big 10 players. It all comes down to talent. Successful teams have turn-over, everyone has turn-over in college basketball, but the successful teams simply have more talent. Even stable programs like Purdue/WI have success because of talent.

You just listed a lot of players. Very few were impact Big 10 players, only 25% or so even had average starter Big 10 talent. And I would say about 50% of those kids simply weren't Big 10 talent players. That is our problem.

I listed all of Iowa's recruiting classes. There was talent that came in, but it left as quickly as it came in. Yes all teams have turnover, but at what rate? Does MSU/Purdue/Illinois/Wisc have 2 guys leave one year bring in 6 and have 4 leave the next? The simple answer is no. Iowa has had problems getting players on campus and keeping them there before 2002, but that is all the further I went back.

 

[BlackGold57]

The rate of turnover on Iowa's roster since Tom Davis left is what has killed the Iowa program, plain and simple. It takes away depth and experience.

Kentucky has turnover, and probably inexperience, but they do win.

Recruiting obviously matters. Coaching staffs do recruiting. Kids get in trouble and kids have other reasons to leave.

Facilities matter. Coaching changes matter. People in the stands matter.

So, if your point is Alford and Lick were bad, get in line with a few thousand others.

I live in Nebraska, and saw Nebraska football take a hit for a few years. Fans did not stop coming. New coach, some success, people are happy.

See if Fran does the same and see if fans come back. I hope so. I like what I see so far from Fran.

 

[drew003]

I listed all of Iowa's recruiting classes. There was talent that came in, but it left as quickly as it came in. Yes all teams have turnover, but at what rate? Does MSU/Purdue/Illinois/Wisc have 2 guys leave one year bring in 6 and have 4 leave the next? The simple answer is no. Iowa has had problems getting players on campus and keeping them there before 2002, but that is all the further I went back.

Those schools recruit better kids. Meaning they are less likely to take chances on academic risks like Roades, Skinner, and Dewitz. And, they are less likely to recruit kids that just can't hack it like Thompson, Reed, Rand, Crawford, Davis, ect...

I'll stand by my assertion that we haven't had that much talent transfer out. Only four players or so. Every college basketball team will lose 4 talented players before their eligibility expires over the course of 8 years. Under Lick, however, this was a bit more troublesome.

 

[PlanoHawk]

What do you want me to say... "ok, good job... i think you got your stats right"?

no value

 

[sportstalent]

What do you want me to say... "ok, good job... i think you got your stats right"?

no value

Nope.
This is overview of what Coach Fran has to follow. Coach Fran has already done an exceptional job of breaking what has become the norm for Iowa basketball. He was able to keep Marlbe and McCabe for the 2010 class, he was able to add Basabe and Cartwright. The one thing Fran has done is stabilize the program and generate interest in a matter of months.
Fran is already light years ahead of where I thought he would be. Fran has multiple top 150 players in the 2011 and 2012 class thinking about Iowa, when was the last time that happened?
Do I expect Iowa to be a NCAA tournament team next year, no. Does Iowa have a chance at the NIT, yes.
This is not going to be the same Iowa team or program that we as fans have grown accustomed too.

 

[VAHawkFan]

Originally Posted by sportstalent
The rate of turnover on Iowa's roster since Tom Davis left is what has killed the Iowa program, plain and simple. It takes away depth and experience.

Kentucky has turnover, and probably inexperience, but they do win.

Recruiting obviously matters. Coaching staffs do recruiting. Kids get in trouble and kids have other reasons to leave.

Facilities matter. Coaching changes matter. People in the stands matter.

So, if your point is Alford and Lick were bad, get in line with a few thousand others.

I live in Nebraska, and saw Nebraska football take a hit for a few years. Fans did not stop coming. New coach, some success, people are happy.

See if Fran does the same and see if fans come back. I hope so. I like what I see so far from Fran.

It's not an either/or answer...and you're both right:

If you can land a top 10 recruiting class every year and replace A+ talent with A+ talent you can afford a "one-and-done" rate of turnover and still be in the national conversation.

If you can't do that, then SportsTalent's point is valid. You have to bring in talented but raw kids who are going to stick with a program for 3-4 years and hone their skills.

In the absence of either culture...you end up with what we have right now.

 

[sportstalent]

It's not an either/or answer...and you're both right:

If you can land a top 10 recruiting class every year and replace A+ talent with A+ talent you can afford a "one-and-done" rate of turnover and still be in the national conversation.

If you can't do that, then SportsTalent's point is valid. You have to bring in talented but raw kids who are going to stick with a program for 3-4 years and hone their skills.

In the absence of either culture...you end up with what we have right now.

You are correct sir, there are a million arguments. Let's see Iowa play with a full roster and get some top 150 players and see how Coach Fran does. Coach is already winning with the fans and that is the first battle.

 

[UncleHawk]

Take a look at the recruiting classes Iowa has inked in the past 8 years, is there any wonder why Iowa has suffered?
Didn't make it to campus/transferred are bold
Transfer-In in bold/italic
Underlined is both

2002:
Jeff Horner
Greg Brunner
Josh Rhoades
2003:
Erek Hansen
Mike Henderson
Ben Rand
Nick DeWitz
2004:
JR Angle
Seth Gorney
Carlton Reed
Doug Thomas
Alex Thompson
Adam Haluska
2005:
Tony Freeman
Kurt Looby
Nathan Skinner
2006:
Josh Crawford
Justin Johnson
Tyler Smith
Cyrus Tate
Jamie Vanderbeeken
2007:
Jarryd Cole
Jake Kelly
Jeff Peterson
2008:
Devan Bawinkel
Andrew Brommer
Jermain Davis
Aaron Fuller
Matt Gatens
Anthony Tucker
2009:
Devin Archie
Brennan Cougill
Cully Payne
Eric May

What I see from this information is that we'll have a better chance to improve next year if we don't have transfers at the end of this season. I'll go along with that. Ultimately, this will depend on the players feeling they and the team are playing up to their abilities. With the coaching staff he has assembled, Fran has a good chance to do this. A better win total ought to follow as most teams get more wins when they play up to their potential. Furthermore, if Fran can sell his coaching to the players, then the recruits are much more likely to be convinced when he contacts them. Let the games begin.
UncleHawk

 

[jparmley3]

You are correct sir, there are a million arguments. Let's see Iowa play with a full roster and get some top 150 players and see how Coach Fran does. Coach is already winning with the fans and that is the first battle.

After the last guy, how in the heck do expect him to lose with the fans?

Not exactly rocket science we are talking about.

The biggest reason we suffered?
Todd Lickliter was in too deep. I said it the week he was hired, and will always say that.

Honestly, I think Fran is sort of in the same boat. But, I will give him the benny of the doubt because he is an East Coast guy. And, that being said, he might have 'connections on the inside'.

 

[sportstalent]

After the last guy, how in the heck do expect him to lose with the fans?

Not exactly rocket science we are talking about.

The biggest reason we suffered?
Todd Lickliter was in too deep. I said it the week he was hired, and will always say that.

Honestly, I think Fran is sort of in the same boat. But, I will give him the benny of the doubt because he is an East Coast guy. And, that being said, he might have 'connections on the inside'.

There is a point where Fran could lose with the fans, if the product he has been preaching has little to zero success.
You make an excellent point about Todd, but I think it is different with Fran. One, he is outgoing and two, he has built programs before, even if it has been at Mid-Major programs at least he did it. Lickliter was always involved with good situations and was lost when things went sour his first season.
It is obvious that Coach Fran has a "few" more connections than that of the previous two coaches. I do think Iowa has more talent today than they did when Lickliter took over and that will bode well for Fran in the future. I really look forward to seeing how Coach Fran builds Iowa, it appears he has a plan and now it is a matter of the staff executing it.

 

[busabus114]

You are correct sir, there are a million arguments. Let's see Iowa play with a full roster and get some top 150 players and see how Coach Fran does. Coach is already winning with the fans and that is the first battle.

Lets be honest - Fran is only winning with the fans because he hasnt lost a game. Dont get me wrong, i like his enthusiasm and what he is doing but Lickliter won with the fans his 1st offseason as well

 

[sportstalent]

Lets be honest - Fran is only winning with the fans because he hasnt lost a game. Dont get me wrong, i like his enthusiasm and what he is doing but Lickliter won with the fans his 1st offseason as well

You may be right, but living in Michigan, I am so much more aware of Coach Fran than I ever was with Lickliter. There have been good stories on ESPN and Yahoo sports about Coach Fran, I just don't remember those with Lickliter, he seemed so much more low key. I do remember at first a lot of people saying it was a good hire, but after that, I don't remember anything but negative.
I do think the fans will give him one year before anything really negative starts, given Iowa doesn't finish any better than they did last year.
I don't expect that to happen, maybe in the Big Ten, Iowa has a good backcourt with depth and I think a couple of those games they lost last year were because of lack of depth and experience, they will have both in the backcourt this year.
Iowa could attempt to finish close to .500 this year with a solid showing in the non-conference season.

 

[JHHawk]

Tyler Smith,Jake Kelly,Jeff Peterson and Tony Freeman left due to the coaching change. If SA had stayed,they likely would have.

Bottom line, Lick eroded our talent pool. I was concerned with his first recruiting class when he took on Brommer,Tucker,Bawinkel and Davis. Gatens was the only good player in the crew and he was already on board when Lick showed up.

Fran has to have a better class than that one right out of the box.

 

[sportstalent]

Tyler Smith,Jake Kelly,Jeff Peterson and Tony Freeman left due to the coaching change. If SA had stayed,they likely would have.

Bottom line, Lick eroded our talent pool. I was concerned with his first recruiting class when he took on Brommer,Tucker,Bawinkel and Davis. Gatens was the only good player in the crew and he was already on board when Lick showed up.

Fran has to have a better class than that one right out of the box.

I think the 2010 class is better than Lick's first class. I am not so sure that it was all Lick, there is a carryover when a new coach comes in. I wasn't a fan of brining in two JUCO guys in his first class though. When a new coach comes in there is going to be a little unrest. Lick also recruited Aaron Fuller, who according to most, was Iowa's best player and he was part of Lick's first class.
With Smith, I am not so sure he ever truly wanted to be at Iowa, he came because Bruce Pearl had just been hired and they didn't see eye to eye the first time they spoke. I do believe the official release was given to Smith because his father was sick and his father did pass away, so was it really because of the coaching change?
I used to have issues with Brommer, but I have come to accept Brommer for a couple of reasons, one give him a chance and two, he does play hard when he plays. Granted, if there was a world record for fouls per second, he would probably own it.
The Tucker situation didn't help Lickliter, after he was deemed academically ineligible and scholarships are on a year to year basis, he would have been dropped if I were the coach. There is one thing for second chances, but apparently the time he had off from the team, there was no urgency to worry about academics. Then there was the second incident with him, should again, have been dropped. Tucker was a distraction the Iowa Program did not need and it is Iowa's fault that they kept giving him chances. I always find it funny when announcers referred to Tucker as Iowa's leading scorer, how may conference games did he play in his career? The leading scorer title would have meant something if he would have been eligible to play against the Big Ten.
You know, there were so many things that went wrong under Lickliter it all cannot be blamed on Lickliter, the University is now recognizing some of the wrongs that started under Alford and continued with Lickliter and are trying to address them for McCaffery. The practice facility is one thing and the support, at least publicly, that the University is attempting to show for the Basketball program.
Iowa is a good Football school, but it also has good enough tradition to be a good Basketball school at the same time. Each sport helps itself, when I watch Michigan games, it is amazing how many football recruits they have attend basketball games. Terrelle Pryor was at one of the games I was at, along with four of what ended up being their top four recruits that year. The Basketball team was not good, but there were a lot of people and they kept showing the recruits on the scoreboard and there were cheers. The Basketball program can use the Football program now, but the Football program cannot use the Basketball program as a basis to show how the fanbase supports all the teams.
Iowa has a coach now that understands what it means to build a program, which is why I don't see a lot of JUCO players coming in, I would say no more than two, including Cartwright, in these first years. Coach Fran will build with his players, young players. He could have easily signed more JUCO guys, but didn't. The staff is built for teaching and it is easier to teach freshman. Iowa will get better players to come, don't worry, in Fran I trust. Iowa is two contributing frontcourt players away from being in the NIT, this year, will it be Brommer, Basabe, or Archie, or none? You know you will get effort, hustle and consistency from Cole, he needs some help.

 

[PlanoHawk]

Nope.
This is overview of what Coach Fran has to follow. Coach Fran has already done an exceptional job of breaking what has become the norm for Iowa basketball. He was able to keep Marlbe and McCabe for the 2010 class, he was able to add Basabe and Cartwright. The one thing Fran has done is stabilize the program and generate interest in a matter of months.
Fran is already light years ahead of where I thought he would be. Fran has multiple top 150 players in the 2011 and 2012 class thinking about Iowa, when was the last time that happened?
Do I expect Iowa to be a NCAA tournament team next year, no. Does Iowa have a chance at the NIT, yes.
This is not going to be the same Iowa team or program that we as fans have grown accustomed too.

That's what I was looking for- thanks!