The other challenge for Iowa basketball

[tweeterhawk]

Hijacking CAARHawk's thread a bit, I think the biggest challenge for Hawkeye fans this spring is going to be this: patience.

Fran and staff have brought new energy and excitement to the program and the fan base, and with that expectations that they are going to immediately line up 4- and 5-star talent. That's obviously foolish thinking. And despite the obvious disappointment they feel (and fans share) in losing out on talented players like Guerrero and Jackson, and even on local talent like Washpun, at least in their first year this new staff is getting looks from better players.

Recruiting is a multiple year process; it appears the staff is getting in on better players. If they are successful, we will see the fruits of their work in the next year or three. It would be wrong to get down on their efforts now just because a name recruit commits elsewhere.

We know Fran is a solid coach, one who offers a style of play that is attractive to players, as well as a great salesman for the program.

It behooves fans to be patient: let's see how the staff uses the available scholarships, who signs this month (or later) and what other recruits begin paying attention to Iowa in the months and years ahead. And how the staff is able to develop the players who do come to Iowa.

I'm optimistic good things are on the horizon.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

Is it a "chicken and the egg" scenario? Can we win without upgrading the talent? Can we upgrade the talent without winning?

I am not sure where I stand in my feelings towards the amount of time Fran has had to establish the proper relationships needed to bring in talent.

By this point in his Iowa tenure, Alford already had Reiner, Sonderleiter, Boyd, Scott, Worley, Reggie Evans and Luke Recker lined up to come in and play for us in year 2. But of course, we were coming off a Sweet 16 appearance at the time Alford signed all of those players. So I have no doubt that our poor record the last four years is absolutely killing us in recruiting.

But when it comes to recruiting, Fran has to start somewhere and he clearly hasn't had the type of immediate recruiting success that Alford had. But I will withhold judgement for another year or so before being to critical, given the mess Fran inherited from Lick. It's a much tougher job than Alford inherited from Davis' lame duck situation - but again, at some point, we do need to start landing some of these players.

It appears we are going to be swinging and missing on most players who are recruited by any other major conferences, so my hope right now is that White and Meyer are really overlooked gems, and that Oglesby is as good a shooter as advertised. So hopefully this group will help get us back to respectability, where we can compete for recruits again.

 

[JHHawk]

Agree. It is hard,no doubt, on fans who are thirsting for positive news about a program that has been down for 5 years...in the offseason,recruiting is all there is to maintain hope...so I understand the frustration.

We have no choice,really. We are Hawkeye bb fans,and we have a new coaching staff who will be here for at least 5 years,imo,after the last debacle. So, we can gnash our teeth and whine, or we can let it play out,and then see how we look on the court next year. Recruiting is the stuff of fantasy leagues,and it is fun,but in the end,it is the performance on the court that is reality. If we improve on the court,recruiting setbacks fade in the memory..lets see how it goes next season. Crean has been feeding his fan base the fantasy recruiting fodder for 3 seasons,and it seems to keep them hanging on,by a thread...but if he keeps losing, recruiting is not going to satisfy the natives.

 

[tweeterhawk]

Alford had two immediate advantages in his first year at Iowa that Fran did not: name recognition and Iowa's previous basketball success, including, as noted, the Sweet 16 appearance immediately before he was hired. Fran is almost starting from scratch.

 

[JHHawk]

SA had the good fortune to have a top 35 recruit right in town...Worley,and another top 35 recruit in South Dakota, where he could snab Reiner,who did consider UCONN and KU...but stayed closer to home. SA was definitely a high profile name in college bb and a pretty good recruiter in some areas..ie..in rural settings.
Reggie was recruited by the holdover assistant from Mr. Davis's staff...who had good established contacts. Recker was a direct result of SA's IU contacts. Hogan and Boyd were just ok,in the end.
I actually think that the next class, Pierce and Sommerville was more impressive,since he beat off Illinois and Kentucky for them.

 

[olivecourt]

Is it a "chicken and the egg" scenario? Can we win without upgrading the talent? Can we upgrade the talent without winning?

I am not sure where I stand in my feelings towards the amount of time Fran has had to establish the proper relationships needed to bring in talent.

By this point in his Iowa tenure, Alford already had Reiner, Sonderleiter, Boyd, Scott, Worley, Reggie Evans and Luke Recker lined up to come in and play for us in year 2. But of course, we were coming off a Sweet 16 appearance at the time Alford signed all of those players. So I have no doubt that our poor record the last four years is absolutely killing us in recruiting.

But when it comes to recruiting, Fran has to start somewhere and he clearly hasn't had the type of immediate recruiting success that Alford had. But I will withhold judgement for another year or so before being to critical, given the mess Fran inherited from Lick. It's a much tougher job than Alford inherited from Davis' lame duck situation - but again, at some point, we do need to start landing some of these players.

It appears we are going to be swinging and missing on most players who are recruited by any other major conferences, so my hope right now is that White and Meyer are really overlooked gems, and that Oglesby is as good a shooter as advertised. So hopefully this group will help get us back to respectability, where we can compete for recruits again.

Oh my god, he had Sonderleiter and Jared Reiner! That must be why we won so many NCAA tournament games.

I've posted about this many times, but I'll say it again: Alford's recruiting is exhibit A in the case of The People vs. Recruiting Rankings. How do the players you mention show that Alford was a good recruiter? You mention seven guys. Three were below-average Big Ten players: Sonderleiter (4 pts/3 rebounds for his career); Scott (2.5 ppg in one season); Reiner (6/5). Two others were pretty much mediocrity defined: Worley (8/4) and Boyd (7.5 ppg).

One (Recker) was a great player who play 53 games for Iowa; another (Evans) was a great player who played two full seasons but is not the kind of guy I think people on this board would define as a "difference-maker."

If Fran doesn't sign another player, the four guys he's already brought in (Cartwright, Basabe, White, and Oglesby) could easily equal that group of seven in terms of on-court production. It ain't exactly a high bar to get over.

 

[DodgerHawki]

Let's be fair here...

Oh my god, he had Sonderleiter and Jared Reiner! That must be why we won so many NCAA tournament games.

I've posted about this many times, but I'll say it again: Alford's recruiting is exhibit A in the case of The People vs. Recruiting Rankings. How do the players you mention show that Alford was a good recruiter? You mention seven guys. Three were below-average Big Ten players: Sonderleiter (4 pts/3 rebounds for his career); Scott (2.5 ppg in one season); Reiner (6/5). Two others were pretty much mediocrity defined: Worley (8/4) and Boyd (7.5 ppg).

One (Recker) was a great player who play 53 games for Iowa; another (Evans) was a great player who played two full seasons but is not the kind of guy I think people on this board would define as a "difference-maker."

If Fran doesn't sign another player, the four guys he's already brought in (Cartwright, Basabe, White, and Oglesby) could easily equal that group of seven in terms of on-court production. It ain't exactly a high bar to get over.

if Evans was not a "difference-maker" then who would classify as one, ever? He AVERAGED a double-double for his Iowa career. MVP of the Big 10 tournament one year and played in the NBA for nearly a decade. In 2001 led the country in free throws attempted, free throws made and double-doubles. Had Recker not gotten hurt, Iowa finishes near the top of the league and Evans gets lots more accolades.

Reiner had improved to the point where he led the Big 10 in rebounding as a junior (averaged a double-double in Big 10 play), then had a season-ending injury 13 games into his senior season. Reiner was not AA quality, but had he not been injured would have likely led the Big 10 in rebounding for 2 seasons. I would agree that Sonderleiter, Scott, Worley and Boyd were nothing to write home about. Can't blame SA for going hard after Worley as he had a very impressive offer list (MSU, KU, etc.). Recker before his injury was probably the best Iowa player in the past 15 years. 18 ppg, 3 assists, 4 rebounds a game, while shooting 43% from 3-point land and 85% from the line. There's many reasons SA didn't succeed at Iowa, from the unlucky (injuries to Recker, Reiner) to bad decisions (bringing back PP) to inability to maintain a roster (huge number of transfers and/or guys getting in trouble).

Fran deserves (and will get) patience. We have no other choice at this point. The Iowa program is irrelevant to most in the country, talented players in-state don't see Iowa as the leading option for college. Only winning will change that.

 

[SirJamaLot]

In Lick's last yr, Hawkeye basketball hit rock bottom, I would be shocked if Fran signed anybody this spring that would be an impact player. Turning this program back into a top 5 Big Ten team and getting into the Dance similar to Wisc. and Purdue is going to take longer than everyone thought. I really feel that Fran and staff are in it for the long haul similar to Ferentz's staff.

Positives: upgraded facilities, veteran coaching staff, money and support in the athletic dept., no pro teams to compete with, Big Ten channel, A large and passionate fan base that is waiting for some success.

Negatives: with a few exceptions, not a ton of 4-5 star in-state talent, a decade or more of medicority or worse, a lousy game atmosphere, the Hawkeyes are now known more for their wrestling and football similar to Penn State, 2 decades of poor recruiting,


I agree with the original poster that we need patience, because I don't think we have any other options. I'm interested to hear what other Hawkeye fans think? Stormin?

 

[CAARHawk]

Reggie Evans NOT a difference maker? Your post is now officially void.

 

[olivecourt]

Re: Let's be fair here...

if Evans was not a "difference-maker" then who would classify as one, ever? He AVERAGED a double-double for his Iowa career. MVP of the Big 10 tournament one year and played in the NBA for nearly a decade. In 2001 led the country in free throws attempted, free throws made and double-doubles. Had Recker not gotten hurt, Iowa finishes near the top of the league and Evans gets lots more accolades.

Reiner had improved to the point where he led the Big 10 in rebounding as a junior (averaged a double-double in Big 10 play), then had a season-ending injury 13 games into his senior season. Reiner was not AA quality, but had he not been injured would have likely led the Big 10 in rebounding for 2 seasons. I would agree that Sonderleiter, Scott, Worley and Boyd were nothing to write home about. Can't blame SA for going hard after Worley as he had a very impressive offer list (MSU, KU, etc.). Recker before his injury was probably the best Iowa player in the past 15 years. 18 ppg, 3 assists, 4 rebounds a game, while shooting 43% from 3-point land and 85% from the line. There's many reasons SA didn't succeed at Iowa, from the unlucky (injuries to Recker, Reiner) to bad decisions (bringing back PP) to inability to maintain a roster (huge number of transfers and/or guys getting in trouble).

Fran deserves (and will get) patience. We have no other choice at this point. The Iowa program is irrelevant to most in the country, talented players in-state don't see Iowa as the leading option for college. Only winning will change that.

I actually totally agree with most of what you wrote. My point is that when guys on this board talk about Fran bringing a difference maker, they usually mean a slashing perimeter player that can create his own shot or a dominant low-post scorer. God bless Reggie Evans, but he was never either of these things, and if you put him on this past year's team, I doubt you get more than 3-4 extra wins out of it. Put him on a team that already had great perimeter players, and he's a beast-- a big reason why he had such a long NBA career. But he's not putting a team on his back and taking them to a Big Ten title (as shown when Recker was hurt).

The one guy that Alford brought in who was a difference maker was Luke Recker, and he played 51 games. Would you rather have Recker for 51 games or Melsahn Basabe for 120+?

With regard to Reiner, I've never seen the bar set so low for a guy who was supposedly a top-50 player in the country as a high school recruit. We don't yet know what Aaron White will bring to the table. But is it conceivable that he'll have more impact than Reiner, who did nothing until his junior year? I'd actually bet on it.

My main point is that for so many posters, all that matters is what Fran hasn't done. But when they look back at Steve Alford's first years, it's with totally rose-colored glasses, as if those were some sort of glory years for the program, which they most definitely were not. The reality is that if you toss the recruiting rankings out the window Fran has already brought in as many impact players (2) as Alford did in his first two years. The difference is that at least one of Fran's guys will be here for four years.

 

[olivecourt]

Reggie Evans NOT a difference maker? Your post is now officially void.

Re-read my post to see what I actually said-- that he's not the type of guy that people talk about on this board when they say Fran needs a difference maker. That's entirely a reflection of his specific skill set and not a knock on him as a player.

However, I think it's worth asking-- how many more games does the 2010-2011 team win if they have Reggie Evans in his prime?

 

[bpiercehawks]

The funny thing is that I truly believe Fran has LESS patience than any of us. He loathes losing and he will not tolerate it. I believe in Fran's approach to turning this thing around 100%.

 

[tweeterhawk]

The funny thing is that I truly believe Fran has LESS patience than any of us. He loathes losing and he will not tolerate it. I believe in Fran's approach to turning this thing around 100%.

I have no doubt of that. My point is that as we all strive for a return to greatness, as fans we should not throw up our hands in desperation every time a highly-sought recruit goes elsewhere. It's disappointing, to be sure, but also dictates moving on and seeking the next option.

Fran & Co. need fan support through thick and thin. I'm not sure it helps to come on message boards to trash the program, recruiting or any of the potential (or lost) recruits. We're just not in that position.

 

[BryceC]

However, I think it's worth asking-- how many more games does the 2010-2011 team win if they have Reggie Evans in his prime?

I would say 5-8.