Read this...

FreddyBrown

Moderator
...if you love college hoops. It's a very long, multi-part article by the Washington Post about how and why the Maryland Terrapins did not stay at the top of the college game after winning their NC several years ago.

There's a lot of interesting information there for hoops junkies, but the part of broadest interest relates to how recruiting works these days, and how Maryland's Gary Williams refuses to play that game. That's in Part II of the story, at the URL pasted below.

Williams outright says that he's lost several recruits due to cheating. He refuses to be involved with the traveling teams (I won't call them AAU teams because according to the article the AAU has nothing to do with most of them) that now influence much of college basketball recruiting in a big way.

Williams is unusual, if not unique, among Division I coaches in refusing to cultivate relationships with the people who run the traveling teams. Even Iowa does it to some degree--it's well established that Iowa has relationships with the 43 Hoops program out of Minnesota (the source of Tucker and Brommer) and the Rising Stars program in the Chicago environs, for which Cully Payne, Ben Brust and Nick Neari played. (It's interesting that the only walk-on Iowa has taken under Lickliter, other than his own son, is from Rising Stars. Maybe taking a walk-on from one of these outfits is one of the "clean" ways to cultivate such a relationship? In any event Neari sounded like a good walk-on to accept on his own merits.)

Not all of this is necessarily unwholesome, and a lot of programs that are regarded as "clean" have these relationships. In a lot of ways the guys who run these traveling teams have supplanted high school coaches in terms of influence with players. I've noticed that, among other ways, in how the recruiting gurus like Van Coleman write their reports: As often as not the traveling team affiliation will be mentioned along with, or even instead of, the high school at which the kid plays.

A week or two ago after Kansas State played a big game on TV there was a string here about whether people would want Frank Martin as a head coach at Iowa. If you have the patience to read through this article you'll see a couple of paragraphs about how K State has played this recruiting game in a huge way, most notably by bribing Michael Beasley's AAU coach to join their staff (and deliver Beasley to K State) for about $350,000 more than he could have earned as an assistant on his own merits. I'm pretty confident that K State continues to do business under Martin the same way they did it under Huggins. So that may help explain why many of us answered that "would you want Frank Martin" question with a resounding "no."

On the other hand, if the goal is to win, win fast, and win big in college basketball, hiring a staff that knows how to play the game and giving them a budget with which to do so is the quickest way to get there. As I said before, Iowa cultivates relationships with some of these traveling teams, but I'm sure not all of them are dirty.

The article is a rare read because you almost never come across a coach speaking with the degree of candor Williams did in interviews with Post reporters. It's a real peek behind the curtain of college basketball recruiting. I'd love to hear Lick's or Barta's comments on this and how they deal with it, but I doubt they'd ever get into the subject and I understand why they'd avoid it like the plague. Even if you run a clean program, and I believe Iowa does under Lickliter (I base that on the kind of players I see them pursuing and landing, as well as those they don't recruit or are unable to land), you can't afford to alienate the people who really control the basketball recruiting scene all over the country. One way to do that would be to have any of your comments interpreted as applying to all such people, which would be unfair. But there does appear to be a lot of dirt in the process. And a lot of it may be beyond any effective regulation at this time.

Enjoy:

It's a Whole New Ballgame, and Maryland's Williams Isn't Playing - washingtonpost.com
 
Last edited:
I think when Lick started, he may have felt the same way about AAU programs...I spoke with some of the AAU guys that are involved with Iowa teams, and they felt like Lick didnt want anything to do with them. I think the relationships have been established now, but I would hardly say Iowa is in bed with anyone. It's an arms length.

I would never want to see Iowa do what Frank Martin has done at KSU...ever.
 
I think when Lick started, he may have felt the same way about AAU programs...I spoke with some of the AAU guys that are involved with Iowa teams, and they felt like Lick didnt want anything to do with them. I think the relationships have been established now, but I would hardly say Iowa is in bed with anyone. It's an arms length.

I would never want to see Iowa do what Frank Martin has done at KSU...ever.

Gary Williams sits in the middle of a very fertile recruiting area. He could recruit very well without ever getting on a plane. It's not easy for him to swear off going through these guys, but it's easier than it would be for Iowa. There's nothing wrong with going through them per se. The difficulty begins when they start wanting some help for their programs, or something else.

I don't know, but I doubt that any of the guys who run the Iowa based programs are looking for anything improper. But these programs do need money to function, and all of them have to get it from somewhere. According to the Post article sometimes there's pressure on college coaches and boosters to help them get it--and that might be among the least objectionable practices that occur.
 
Gary Williams sits in the middle of a very fertile recruiting area. He could recruit very well without ever getting on a plane. It's not easy for him to swear off going through these guys, but it's easier than it would be for Iowa. There's nothing wrong with going through them per se. The difficulty begins when they start wanting some help for their programs, or something else.

I don't know, but I doubt that any of the guys who run the Iowa based programs are looking for anything improper. But these programs do need money to function, and all of them have to get it from somewhere. According to the Post article sometimes there's pressure on college coaches and boosters to help them get it--and that might be among the least objectionable practices that occur.
Let's not group all traveling teams under the same umbrella. There are very respectable traveling team programs and there are some very shady programs. Programs like 43 Hoops, Rising Stars, Kingdom Hoops, Dakota Schoolers etc. are very respectable programs and have respectable people running them. They typically will have development programs for both boys and girls from grade school age up along with traveling teams for older kids. College coaches will try to avoid the shady programs for obvious reasons.
 
I remember a case back a few years ago when Bill Self was still at Illiniois, and Self acknowledged calling boosters to help out the Ft Saukee(sp) Springfield/Peoria AAU program with contributions. It came out when he moved to KU and was recruiting Cy Tates All American teammate at Homewood,Julian Williams, current NO Hornet, and Self was getting roasted by illini fans for his own tactics as an illini coach. There is no doubt that guys like Self absolutely thrive in the AAU racket.

And yes, it was pretty clear when Lick came to Iowa that he disdained dealing with AAU programs,which of course contibuted to a slow start on the recruiting front...bottom line to me...do everything that is within the rules to get talent. If it is a gray area, back away.

OK, read the article. Williams is a prickly sort who is a ''my way or the highway'' type of guy, but the pressure is getting to him,clearly. Stevenson did not end up at MD, I believe.

Is Coach K cheating when he establishes these relationships with AAU programs? Clearly,he is right in there with DC Assault among others...I guess I would say to lick...do what Coach K does, he seems to enjoy a stellar reputation which is probably not accurate,but he gets away with it.

What also comes thru is that a guy like Williams, over 30 year career in college bb, might be totally tired of chasing these kids around ,giving them the attention they seek. In contrast, Roy Williams is seen in a casino last Feb during a snowstorm near Des Moines after a Harrison Barnes game was cancelled...and made countless trips to Ames..it paid off.

I sense that not only does Lick not enjoy the AAU aspect of recruiting, but just the entire process of recruiting is painful for him. I see him as a purist in bb terms...loves the x's and o's , practice, guiding young men,ect...but disdains the whole sales aspect of the job...selling the program to the fans or to recruits. Not a sin, just his personality. Bottom line, is that recruiting is the lifeblood of college bb and those who ignore that (like Bob Knight late in his years at IU and Gary Williams) end up struggling.

The NCAA just ruled that no AAU coaches or HS coaches of recruits can work for a college that gets that recruit for two years before or after the recruit commits...that is a start to addressing that practice. The NCAA promised more rules will be instituted come April to deal with bb recruiting.

In the meantime...if lick could just get Chasson Randle, Marcus Paige, and Peter Jok...all within 2 hours of campus, he will look like a recruitng machine.
 
Last edited:
I can see where Williams would be frustrated. Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant and Beasley are all Baltimore area kids and, to the best of my memory, Maryland did not get a sniff from any of them.

It's a tough call for a school to make. Maryland, as stated, sits in a great recruiting area but they are really struggling. Can Iowa hope to be competitive without developing relationships with travelling teams? I have a good friend who is a former D1 assistant. He has told me numerous times the only way for Iowa to be truly competitive again is to hire someone who has these relationships. He is not saying you have to cheat, but that a school has to have these relationships to make it.

I hope that isn't the case for Iowa, or for anyone else, but I might be very naive in that hope.
 
I just think if it is not cheating, do it. Maybe you have to swallow hard like Coach K evidently has, to cultivate relationships with guys like Malone of DC Assault who is a convicted felon 20 years ago, but when coaches make 1-2 million a year, sometimes they have to do stuff they would prefer not to do...otherwise, go coach at Wartburg.
 
Interseting Freddy.

I haven't looked at the article yet (it's pretty long), but I will. I was the one that posted the tread re Frank Martin. The coach in question that Beasley came with is Dalonte Hill. He does make about $350K or so, and Martin took a lower salary to get more for Hill and I believe one other coach.

By the way, Hill was not Beasley's AAU coach. Hill was an assistant at his own alma mater, Charlotte, for three years before he came to KSU. See KSU's coach's bio on him for more. Hill had previously been with that AAU team and also had known Beasley for years, as the article points out. He had Beasley coming to Charlotte before he took the KSU job and Beasley had that relationship and trusted him and came to KSU. Hill had been an AAU coach before he was at Charlotte, and as I mentioned he played ball at Charlotte, so he isn't quite the shady AAU coach that never played college ball a la Myron Piggie and that type.

What I find interesting in reading your comments about Gary Williams, though, is that he tried to hire Dalonte Hill, as the article states, when Hill went to KSU. But before Hill went elsewhere (KSU) Williams complained that he couldn't pay an assistant that much money and didn't even interview him. I bet he could have if he would have taken a pay cut of a couple hundred K to offset the difference between what Hill signed for at KSU and what Maryland would have initially offered him.

So he doesn't quite appear to be as against it as your comments on the article make it seem, just against it at the price in question. I neither like or dislike him, actually that isn't true. I liked him when I was at Iowa and he was the head guy at Ohio State. I still like him and pulled for them in the Final Four when they won it all. He can be against the AAU scene, but he still tried to hire Hill. It seems like kind of a mixed message to me.
 
Last edited:
Re: Interseting Freddy.

Any way you cut it, the salary Hill received was a bribe to bring Beasley. The irony of it is that while it was apparently not in violation of NCAA rules to hire Hill at an exhorbitant salary at the time, it would have been a major violation for Hill to share any of that cash with Beasley or his family. I do wonder if that happened anyway. Can you imagine how the family would feel about the coach getting all the scratch for the commitment?

Someone posted elsewhere (perhaps in the Martin string?) that the NCAA now has a rule against hiring certain people for the purpose of landing a recruit. I'm not familiar with the rule, but I wonder--would that have prevented what K State did to land Beasley?
 
Last edited:
Perhaps a bit off-topic as I don't believe LaFrenz played AAU but I do recall hearing stories that Kansas hired Raef's dad to be part of their staff while he played there which was one of the earlier reads that had people questioning that program for a while.
 
If you are insterested in this you might want to read "Raw Recruits". It came out around 1990. It details how seemy recruiting was at that time. Dale Brown was a master at hiring a kids high school coach as an assistant to get a recruit.
 
I don't get it Freddy.

What is your thing with Beasley. I already stated Hill was a coach at Charlotte BEFORE he was ever hired by KSU. And it is hardly a bribe to hire a coach and pay him what you want to pay him. Maybe in your mind it is, but it really isn't. By the way, Hill actually played for that AAU team. He was from that area too, hence great connections to that team.

I guess I am just on board with doing things that aren't breaking the rules. Last time I checked no one is breathing down KSU's neck for allegations of any sort. There is not even a HINT of impropriety at KSU regarding their basketball program.
 
Re: I don't get it Freddy.

I guess I am just on board with doing things that aren't breaking the rules. Last time I checked no one is breathing down KSU's neck for allegations of any sort. There is not even a HINT of impropriety at KSU regarding their basketball program.

This is the way I feel. If it isn't against the rules - do it. Do all you can to recruit the best players possible and be competetive.

I confess to never having been involved in coaching at any level, and I don't know jack about what goes on behind the scenes (recruiting included), but I've got to believe that college recruiting is an insanely competetive process. I don't condone actual flat-out cheating, but if there is more you can be doing without breaking any rules, then I think a coach owes it to himself and the program to do those things. Otherwise, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. Times clearly are changing. Adapt or perish.
 
Re: I don't get it Freddy.

This is the way I feel. If it isn't against the rules - do it. Do all you can to recruit the best players possible and be competetive.

I confess to never having been involved in coaching at any level, and I don't know jack about what goes on behind the scenes (recruiting included), but I've got to believe that college recruiting is an insanely competetive process. I don't condone actual flat-out cheating, but if there is more you can be doing without breaking any rules, then I think a coach owes it to himself and the program to do those things. Otherwise, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. Times clearly are changing. Adapt or perish.


Exactly. As indicated in the article, Matt Painter and Thad Matta are right in there cultivating these relationships and are respected by those AAU coaches...do they cheat? I doubt it, but they work their arses off hustling to all the games,and touching base with all the coaches...and clearly it is paying off as they are entrenched in the top tier in the league and will stay there with their recruiting chops.
 

Latest posts

Top