Pomeroy Nailed It

[Fryowa]

As much as I sort of want to (or maybe try to is a better phrase...), I can't argue with Pomeroy's main point here. And not just because he's calling out Izzo. Fran has done it too.

The Izzo Conundrum

I've seen with my own eyes Tim Polasek drag players around by face masks during the spring game, and the stuff that I heard him yell at players would make Andrew Dice Clay blush (I have to admit that Polasek's freak outs are funny because he's a little leprechaunish Oompa Loompa and Tristan Wirfs would fold him up like a wet blanket if he wanted).

Do we tolerate this stuff because it's sports? (I think we all know the answer...)

I'm not morally superior on this issue either...If my own son got screamed at and grabbed by a coach, I probably would chalk it up to similarities with my own experience.

But if I ever found out that his math teacher grabbed his shirt and got in his face screaming goddammits and F-bombs in front of other students because he got a C on a quiz, god help that poor bastard because I'm going to jail for manslaughter. At the very least, even the most level-headed parents would call the police.

Yes, I'm aware of how much of a double standard that is, and I am totally guilty of it.

 

[WindsorHawk]

As much as I sort of want to (or maybe try to is a better phrase...), I can't argue with Pomeroy's main point here. And not just because he's calling out Izzo. Fran has done it too.

The Izzo Conundrum

I've seen with my own eyes Tim Polasek drag players around by face masks during the spring game, and the stuff that I heard him yell at players would make Andrew Dice Clay blush (I have to admit that Polasek's freak outs are funny because he's a little leprechaunish Oompa Loompa and Tristan Wirfs would fold him up like a wet blanket if he wanted).

Do we tolerate this stuff because it's sports? (I think we all know the answer...)

I'm not morally superior on this issue either...If my own son got screamed at and grabbed by a coach, I probably would chalk it up to similarities with my own experience.

But if I ever found out that his math teacher grabbed his shirt and got in his face screaming goddammits and F-bombs in front of other students because he got a C on a quiz, god help that poor bastard because I'm going to jail for manslaughter. At the very least, even the most level-headed parents would call the police.

Yes, I'm aware of how much of a double standard that is, and I am totally guilty of it.

Interesting stuff.

 

[SteveGarvey1]

Didn't Rick Majerus use to grab guys by their jewels? That's just a little extreme there, if true.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

As much as I sort of want to (or maybe try to is a better phrase...), I can't argue with Pomeroy's main point here. And not just because he's calling out Izzo. Fran has done it too.

The Izzo Conundrum

I've seen with my own eyes Tim Polasek drag players around by face masks during the spring game, and the stuff that I heard him yell at players would make Andrew Dice Clay blush (I have to admit that Polasek's freak outs are funny because he's a little leprechaunish Oompa Loompa and Tristan Wirfs would fold him up like a wet blanket if he wanted).

Do we tolerate this stuff because it's sports? (I think we all know the answer...)

I'm not morally superior on this issue either...If my own son got screamed at and grabbed by a coach, I probably would chalk it up to similarities with my own experience.

But if I ever found out that his math teacher grabbed his shirt and got in his face screaming goddammits and F-bombs in front of other students because he got a C on a quiz, god help that poor bastard because I'm going to jail for manslaughter. At the very least, even the most level-headed parents would call the police.

Yes, I'm aware of how much of a double standard that is, and I am totally guilty of it.

society establishes acceptable standards for all parts and aspects of society. in football, that is acceptable. in math, it isn't. would you want your kid to have to squat 300 lbs in order to be able to take a math test? society isn't one single homogeneous organism. football is a voluntary part of a persons life and they know and accept certain accepted standards. football, at it's core, involves contact with another human being. getting grabbed by the facemask by a coach to direct him to a technique is about as mild as it gets. As for the swearing, freedom of speech. if any player doesn't like it, they can forego their scholly, pick a university of their choice, or not, and pay their way through college like the other 99% of students at any given school.

 

[Fryowa]

society establishes acceptable standards for all parts and aspects of society. in football, that is acceptable. in math, it isn't. would you want your kid to have to squat 300 lbs in order to be able to take a math test? society isn't one single homogeneous organism. football is a voluntary part of a persons life and they know and accept certain accepted standards. football, at it's core, involves contact with another human being. getting grabbed by the facemask by a coach to direct him to a technique is about as mild as it gets. As for the swearing, freedom of speech. if any player doesn't like it, they can forego their scholly, pick a university of their choice, or not, and pay their way through college like the other 99% of students at any given school.

Respectfully, your points fall short.

Sorry, but “society establishes acceptable standards...” doesn’t work as an excuse nor as a justification. It assumes 1) that standards never change, and 2) that the standards at a particular point in time are always acceptable.

Women didn’t used be able to vote because society had established it as acceptable that men knew what was good for them and that they should make babies and be quiet.

Also, you said that because football is voluntary, extreme discipline is acceptable because people are free to take it or leave it. What about if we make the example about a math class in college? Would that kind of behavior be acceptable at that point by a prof rather than a high school teacher? Students are surely free to go to college or not, as well as choose any number of colleges in the country. What about in a job? Acceptable there? Employment is certainly voluntary.

You’re being extremely shortsighted on this. You’ve already made up your mind going into it and created the justification (weakly) after the fact, instead of coming to a conclusion based on weighing out the points of view. You’ve basically tried to be eloquent in saying, “that’s the way it’s always been so it’s ok.” You gotta go back to the drawing board.

 

[99topdawg]

As much as I sort of want to (or maybe try to is a better phrase...), I can't argue with Pomeroy's main point here. And not just because he's calling out Izzo. Fran has done it too.

The Izzo Conundrum

I've seen with my own eyes Tim Polasek drag players around by face masks during the spring game, and the stuff that I heard him yell at players would make Andrew Dice Clay blush (I have to admit that Polasek's freak outs are funny because he's a little leprechaunish Oompa Loompa and Tristan Wirfs would fold him up like a wet blanket if he wanted).

Do we tolerate this stuff because it's sports? (I think we all know the answer...)

I'm not morally superior on this issue either...If my own son got screamed at and grabbed by a coach, I probably would chalk it up to similarities with my own experience.

But if I ever found out that his math teacher grabbed his shirt and got in his face screaming goddammits and F-bombs in front of other students because he got a C on a quiz, god help that poor bastard because I'm going to jail for manslaughter. At the very least, even the most level-headed parents would call the police.

Yes, I'm aware of how much of a double standard that is, and I am totally guilty of it.

I've always told people that (football) Coach Topdawg, (math teacher) Mr. Topdawg, (the person) 99topdawg, and Daddy Topdawg are all different people. I don't treat my players, students, acquaintances, and children all the same way. Honestly, it is for the exact reasons you outline above.

 

[hawkation]

. . . . men knew what was good for them and that they should make babies and be quiet. . . .

And make me a ham san-wich!!

 

[HawkGold]

If most of us hear did what izzo did on a street, it would be misdemeanor assault.

If Lori Laughlin weren't famous, she for sure would go to jail for tax fraud.

It used to be acceptable for doctors to harass nurses.

It's changing.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Respectfully, your points fall short.

Sorry, but “society establishes acceptable standards...” doesn’t work as an excuse nor as a justification. It assumes 1) that standards never change, and 2) that the standards at a particular point in time are always acceptable.

Women didn’t used be able to vote because society had established it as acceptable that men knew what was good for them and that they should make babies and be quiet.

Also, you said that because football is voluntary, extreme discipline is acceptable because people are free to take it or leave it. What about if we make the example about a math class in college? Would that kind of behavior be acceptable at that point by a prof rather than a high school teacher? Students are surely free to go to college or not, as well as choose any number of colleges in the country. What about in a job? Acceptable there? Employment is certainly voluntary.

You’re being extremely shortsighted on this. You’ve already made up your mind going into it and created the justification (weakly) after the fact, instead of coming to a conclusion based on weighing out the points of view. You’ve basically tried to be eloquent in saying, “that’s the way it’s always been so it’s ok.” You gotta go back to the drawing board.

actually, my point is that people can spend too much time thinking about things that don't really matter. perhaps instead of worrying about whether a football player gets yelled at during practice, or grabbed by the facemask, maybe other things in society should be discussed. you know, there are some real big problems facing this country...and football practice isn't one of them.

are you saying that a coach yelling, screaming and swearing at a player and grabbing a face mask is worse than the actual violent contact during a game? i mean, these football players voluntarily joined the football team knowing they were going to collide at high speeds with other human beings in order to run them over or knock them down. should football plays start suing each other or universities for their injuries?

would you please define extreme discipline? how about making players run stairs for a fumble during practice, or a turnover in basketball during practice? certainly, that can be legislated, also, right? what about a math teacher that simply tells the entire class that a student flunked a test? is that extreme? so, again, society decides and what you described has been deemed acceptable by society. feel free to try and change it.

 

[PCHawk]

What is acceptable in a high school math class is and should be completely different than what is acceptable at a Navy Seals training camp. If you agree with that, then you agree that there are different rules for different situations. If you don't agree with that, I dont know what to tell you. All that said, I think a coach screaming at players is as worthless as a parent screaming at a 5 year old. There are better ways to teach.

I suppose worthless is the wrong word. But something close to that is accurate.

 

[dirtwrap]

I dont like Izzo or Michigan St at all, i never have. However, there is no denying the fact that he consistently, more than any other school in the country or in the B1G, has the most mentally strong teams. What he has accomplished as a coach is incredible with respect to the talent that he coaches. And, for that matter, all of his current and former players love and respect him, probably because he prepares them to be better players and men than they thought they could be. Much like what our military does.

Face it, if Izzo was our coach we would immortalize him, as we should. He is there to do a job, and that is to win basketball games and championships. If he changes his approach he probably ends up fielding typical Iowa teams that fold up like a cheap tent when they face adversity and fade at the end of seasons and he gets fired.

It is voluntary you know, if kids or their parents dont want to get coached like that they just dont have to go there. And because of that i dont see why anyone has a problem with that, because its not like Izzo is trying to hide it.

 

[HawkGold]

I dont like Izzo or Michigan St at all, i never have. However, there is no denying the fact that he consistently, more than any other school in the country or in the B1G, has the most mentally strong teams. What he has accomplished as a coach is incredible with respect to the talent that he coaches. And, for that matter, all of his current and former players love and respect him, probably because he prepares them to be better players and men than they thought they could be. Much like what our military does.

Face it, if Izzo was our coach we would immortalize him, as we should. He is there to do a job, and that is to win basketball games and championships. If he changes his approach he probably ends up fielding typical Iowa teams that fold up like a cheap tent when they face adversity and fade at the end of seasons and he gets fired.

It is voluntary you know, if kids or their parents dont want to get coached like that they just dont have to go there. And because of that i dont see why anyone has a problem with that, because its not like Izzo is trying to hide it.

Parents voluntarily took their kids to Dr Larry. OK so what. Its wrong and it will change. That was abuse and you cant color it any other way. Basketball attendance is slipping for reasons. This is one of them.

 

[dirtwrap]

Parents voluntarily took their kids to Dr Larry. OK so what. Its wrong and it will change. That was abuse and you cant color it any other way. Basketball attendance is slipping for reasons. This is one of them.

I highly doubt that anyone knew about dr larry, but Izzo's rep is widely known. Your comparison is ridiculous.

 

[HawkGold]

I highly doubt that anyone knew about dr larry, but Izzo's rep is widely known. Your comparison is ridiculous.

You really whiffed. Its abuse. The girls did tell. The parents got caught up. You are caught up in the cult of personalty. What Iz did was abuse.

 

[HawkGold]

Brad Underwood was investigated after independent faculty exit interviews were done on 6 players that left the program. The AD cleared him of allegations, but faculty are pushing the outcome of that investigation. Underwood is probably worse than Fran. The faculty is criticizing that current players aren't going to report him.

The days of abusive coaching is on the way out. Sooner would be better than later. If it makes you feel better that a lunatic coach abuses a player and gets them to temporarily respond so you can feel good about your favorite colors on the court then that is just sad. What would you expect Henry to say? Coach was a jerk? Coach was abusive? No. Do that to me on the street or as my boss and you'll get one right in the face if that fist comes forward. Actually my boss did do something like that six months ago. He stopped about that point and I reported it later in meeting confronted him about it. Why some think it's OK normal is beyond me. The boss is a lunatic, but he has made behavioral changes. He wanted me to not report an environmental violation. I did almost hit him. If someone does that to you ...you have the right to actually throw the first punch. IZ is committing misdemeanor assault in that picture for your law lesson of the day.

For this reason alone, I will never support Fran. His career will end badly. Book it.

 

[dirtwrap]

Brad Underwood was investigated after independent faculty exit interviews were done on 6 players that left the program. The AD cleared him of allegations, but faculty are pushing the outcome of that investigation. Underwood is probably worse than Fran. The faculty is criticizing that current players aren't going to report him.

The days of abusive coaching is on the way out. Sooner would be better than later. If it makes you feel better that a lunatic coach abuses a player and gets them to temporarily respond so you can feel good about your favorite colors on the court then that is just sad. What would you expect Henry to say? Coach was a jerk? Coach was abusive? No. Do that to me on the street or as my boss and you'll get one right in the face if that fist comes forward. Actually my boss did do something like that six months ago. He stopped about that point and I reported it later in meeting confronted him about it. Why some think it's OK normal is beyond me. The boss is a lunatic, but he has made behavioral changes. He wanted me to not report an environmental violation. I did almost hit him. If someone does that to you ...you have the right to actually throw the first punch. IZ is committing misdemeanor assault in that picture for your law lesson of the day.

For this reason alone, I will never support Fran. His career will end badly. Book it.

Do you think the military should also stop the same motivational techniques?

 

[uihawk82]

What is acceptable in a high school math class is and should be completely different than what is acceptable at a Navy Seals training camp. If you agree with that, then you agree that there are different rules for different situations. If you don't agree with that, I dont know what to tell you. All that said, I think a coach screaming at players is as worthless as a parent screaming at a 5 year old. There are better ways to teach.

I suppose worthless is the wrong word. But something close to that is accurate.

very good comparison. Raise your voice to get their attention, get them to give you eye contact, and make your teaching point. These players know when they make a mistake most times.

Izzo went way overboard with this reaction to a mistake. One full minute or more of public verbal flogging of one of his players in front of millions. If Izzo's teams werent allowed to get away with their mugging, ala J Heathcote and others, he would not be nearly as successful. I am not a fan of the Izzo and others like him. Bobby Knights great coaching is tainted by his on court and sometimes practice time antics.Knight got his players to graduate and helped them all but he was still tainted.

Severely grabbing a facemask and yanking it is a penalty in a game and should be a penalty against coaches. Slapping, hitting players has no place.

 

[oldhawk12]

very good comparison. Raise your voice to get their attention, get them to give you eye contact, and make your teaching point. These players know when they make a mistake most times.

Izzo went way overboard with this reaction to a mistake. One full minute or more of public verbal flogging of one of his players in front of millions. If Izzo's teams werent allowed to get away with their mugging, ala J Heathcote and others, he would not be nearly as successful. I am not a fan of the Izzo and others like him. Bobby Knights great coaching is tainted by his on court and sometimes practice time antics.Knight got his players to graduate and helped them all but he was still tainted.

Severely grabbing a facemask and yanking it is a penalty in a game and should be a penalty against coaches. Slapping, hitting players has no place.

If you don’t think verbal and borderline physical abuse doesn’t happen in every college football program in America over an athlete’s four yr period then you are incredibly naive. Not saying it’s right. Just saying it goes on and there appears to be somewhat of a double standard between sports

 

[HawkGold]

Do you think the military should also stop the same motivational techniques?

The training leader at my son's boot camp was relieved of duties. They lost over half of the trainees and had several hospitalizations. Btw, he didn't need to do basic and today is a Captain.

So the short answer is yes. There is very little that is done in basic that really prepares one for combat. Combat is the best experience and after that unit training, but it is no real substitute.

In WW2 at Bastogne, a Captain was shot by his own men as he was yelling and screaming at them under fire. Happens more often that we think.

Lunacy is not leadership. I'll take Bennett any day.

There are reason why the military wants 19 and 20 yo's. Too young to know better and will follow stupidly.

Izzo was nuts. The video is worse than the pic. Why are children abused? It's easier. Many adults who get abused as adults have complex trauma where they can't defend themselves as adults.

It's just plain wrong.

What in the name of God makes you think lunatic military training leaders are doing it right? It's just what they do.

 

[trj]

Do you think the military should also stop the same motivational techniques?

Haven’t they? From what I have been told basic training(depending on what branch) isn’t what it used to be. I will admit that a possible reason is that they are trying to get more to enlist.