My takeaway from the MD game

[Hawkfnntn]

Here's what I took away from that game. JW better get his shit together. He's had a few bad games here recently and none were less impactful then last night. If he has another game or 2 like that in a row I'd bench him for Murray. The season is too short and our goals are too high to be starting/playing guys for reasons that are tied to feelings. I know Murray played more then him yesterday but I'm more worried about getting off to that slow of a start to the game. We can't continue to do that.

Sure we were able to get off to that slow start against that MD team and overcome it. Against the Michigans and Illinois of the league I'm not so sure I'd rather not find out. It's one thing if it was just scoring and shooting for Joe but it's not. He's also not defending well. He doesn't seem to be in position like he should. You can tell he's playing frustrated and the game just isn't coming to him. Maybe it's due to his being bulked up some. I wonder if that's affected his shot to the degree he's lost some of his touch. I dunno but I'm curious if any of you are seeing what I'm seeing or am I knee jerk reacting too hard?

 

[ssckelley]

I think you are being too hard on JW and ignoring how terrible Fredrick was. I loved how quick Fran yanked him when his lack of defense turned into wide open looks for Maryland, that they converted on. So between JW and Fredrick struggling turned into a lot of minutes for Murray, and I would like to see more of that going forward.

One thought I had was how in-your-face Maryland was defending Garza. Garza has done such a terrific job staying out of foul trouble, it's been a HUGE improvement he's made over the years. Two of those fouls (he had 3) were from Maryland players putting themselves in position to take an elbow from Garza and I can't help but wonder if it was done on purpose. Garza is NOT a dirty player, neither time he got called for the foul were his elbows extended and flying they were both from him just trying to move with the basketball that turned into an elbow in the face. The first time it happened I didn't think much of it but then when it happened the 2nd time under the basket it started making me wonder if the Maryland player wasn't looking to draw that foul. It's a painful way to stop Garza but it worked and in future games a foul that could put Garza on the bench.

I can't help but wonder what was said at the end of the game, it looked like Garza made a point to go over and talk to Turgeon. I haven't had a chance to watch any post game interviews, perhaps Garza was asked about it. I think he wanted to make sure the coach understood the contact was not intentional.

 

[NorthKCHawk]

Thank goodness Fran is not as reactionary as the fan base. JW has a couple quiet games and now we should bench him? He is the second leading scorer and probably the second best player overall on the team.

This same crowd wanted to bench JBO in favor of JT a couple games ago. Now he is shooting like an assassin. I am sure pitchforks and torches will come out for Conner again soon.

Have some patience and perspective.

We have 9 legit Big Ten Players on this team. All of them are capable of scoring double digits any night except for Conner. They are all going to get serious PT in the first half of each game and Fran will go with hot hands as he did last night. But, the starting line up is not going to change absent injury, and that is absolutely the right move on a veteran team trying to make a deep tourney run.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

I think you are being too hard on JW and ignoring how terrible Fredrick was. I loved how quick Fran yanked him when his lack of defense turned into wide open looks for Maryland, that they converted on. So between JW and Fredrick struggling turned into a lot of minutes for Murray, and I would like to see more of that going forward.

One thought I had was how in-your-face Maryland was defending Garza. Garza has done such a terrific job staying out of foul trouble, it's been a HUGE improvement he's made over the years. Two of those fouls (he had 3) were from Maryland players putting themselves in position to take an elbow from Garza and I can't help but wonder if it was done on purpose. Garza is NOT a dirty player, neither time he got called for the foul were his elbows extended and flying they were both from him just trying to move with the basketball that turned into an elbow in the face. The first time it happened I didn't think much of it but then when it happened the 2nd time under the basket it started making me wonder if the Maryland player wasn't looking to draw that foul. It's a painful way to stop Garza but it worked and in future games a foul that could put Garza on the bench.

I can't help but wonder what was said at the end of the game, it looked like Garza made a point to go over and talk to Turgeon. I haven't had a chance to watch any post game interviews, perhaps Garza was asked about it. I think he wanted to make sure the coach understood the contact was not intentional.

Yeah I didn't bring up CJ only because Murray mostly plays JWs position and would be who slides right in for him to play more if a move like that would happen. You're right CJ played like crap too no doubt. His offense I'm not going to be as critical of if only because he doesn't handle the ball nearly as much. He's kinda dependent on others and how the defense is defending the other guys to get his touches/shots. JW is more of a focal point of the O. Arguably our #2 option most nights. Supposedly an NBA prospect etc. And he's been anything but that lately.

CJs D has to be better then it was as well and that's why he didn't play as much either. I'd be all for JT getting more mins too if they are at his expense then so be it. What good is all this depth if we don't use it when starters aren't playing well. I'm glad Fran did what he did playing them less like that.

Yeah MD was just getting all up under Garza like they were pretty much hoping for that to happen. Garza doesn't flail his elbows around at all. He has 2 hands on the ball almost all the time better then most at it. The first one I wasn't as upset about (other then the sell job/floping of the kid) It shoulda been a foul on Garza and a flop warning on them. The 2nd one in the lane that was total BS. Garza shoulda been shooting FTs on that.

 

[Ree4]

I think you are being too hard on JW and ignoring how terrible Fredrick was. I loved how quick Fran yanked him when his lack of defense turned into wide open looks for Maryland, that they converted on. So between JW and Fredrick struggling turned into a lot of minutes for Murray, and I would like to see more of that going forward.

One thought I had was how in-your-face Maryland was defending Garza. Garza has done such a terrific job staying out of foul trouble, it's been a HUGE improvement he's made over the years. Two of those fouls (he had 3) were from Maryland players putting themselves in position to take an elbow from Garza and I can't help but wonder if it was done on purpose. Garza is NOT a dirty player, neither time he got called for the foul were his elbows extended and flying they were both from him just trying to move with the basketball that turned into an elbow in the face. The first time it happened I didn't think much of it but then when it happened the 2nd time under the basket it started making me wonder if the Maryland player wasn't looking to draw that foul. It's a painful way to stop Garza but it worked and in future games a foul that could put Garza on the bench.

I can't help but wonder what was said at the end of the game, it looked like Garza made a point to go over and talk to Turgeon. I haven't had a chance to watch any post game interviews, perhaps Garza was asked about it. I think he wanted to make sure the coach understood the contact was not intentional.

I think Turgeon was giving props to Fran about Garza, then pointed at him. Garza came over and it appeared friendly from what I could tell. Probably something along the lines of "boy we let him get away"

 

[Hawkfnntn]

Thank goodness Fran is not as reactionary as the fan base. JW has a couple quiet games and now we should bench him? He is the second leading scorer and probably the second best player overall on the team.

This same crowd wanted to bench JBO in favor of JT a couple games ago. Now he is shooting like an assassin. I am sure pitchforks and torches will come out for Conner again soon.

Have some patience and perspective.

We have 9 legit Big Ten Players on this team. All of them are capable of scoring double digits any night except for Conner. They are all going to get serious PT in the first half of each game and Fran will go with hot hands as he did last night. But, the starting line up is not going to change absent injury, and that is absolutely the right move on a veteran team trying to make a deep tourney run.

I said if he has another game or 2 that's bad which would make it 4 or 5 bad ones in a row... How many bad games in a row do you think it should take to start worrying? Because it's not just his O that's been below what it should be. It was his D last night that was even worse. Against the better teams I don't think we can afford to get down 10 pts early. Why would we want to? I'd rather he play better and to what he's capable of. But if he's not Murray sure looks like he's ready to go.

 

[PCHawk]

I think Turgeon was giving props to Fran about Garza, then pointed at him. Garza came over and it appeared friendly from what I could tell. Probably something along the lines of "boy we let him get away"

Thats what I saw. It looked like Turgeon got Garza's attention to let him know he wanted to talk to him when he got done talking to Fran. Making sure Garza didn't walk away before he could tell him how awesome he is.

 

[Ree4]

Yeah it was pretty neat to see, I think Garza seemed to enjoy whatever was being said

 

[Hawkfnntn]

Thats what I saw. It looked like Turgeon got Garza's attention to let him know he wanted to talk to him when he got done talking to Fran. Making sure Garza didn't walk away before he could tell him how awesome he is.

Well Garza will go down as the biggest one he 'let get away' stories. All he had to do was offer him his JR yr and he'd have had him. To think that Garza and Smith coulda been at MD together has to keep him up at night... His lost our gain.

 

[PCHawk]

Well Garza will go down as the biggest one he 'let get away' stories. All he had to do was offer him his JR yr and he'd have had him. To think that Garza and Smith coulda been at MD together has to keep him up at night... His lost our gain.

Smith might be back this year due to lack of exposure last year playing next to Garza. Bad for Smith. Really good for Maryland.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

And just like that look how tough we are to beat with JW playing like his old self. Glad he snapped out of it. When our big 3 outscore the other team all together it's safe to say we'll win. (MATH)

 

[NorthKCHawk]

So does JW now get a couple games grace before we discuss benching him again?

Its a long season. Everyone except Garza is going to have some ups and downs. Right now Bohannon is hot and JW had a nice game. The downs now appears to be CJ. But, what I love is that CJ is not forcing anything, he is not hurting the team, and he is taking his time on the bench like a good teammate. Would not surprise me if the next 20 point game is him.

This is a deep, veteran, and unselfish team. Absent injury, you don't even have a shower thought about changing the starting line-up.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

So does JW now get a couple games grace before we discuss benching him again?

Its a long season. Everyone except Garza is going to have some ups and downs. Right now Bohannon is hot and JW had a nice game. The downs now appears to be CJ. But, what I love is that CJ is not forcing anything, he is not hurting the team, and he is taking his time on the bench like a good teammate. Would not surprise me if the next 20 point game is him.

This is a deep, veteran, and unselfish team. Absent injury, you don't even have a shower thought about changing the starting line-up.

Depends how he plays... I mean having some consistency would be great. We can't afford having him go for 6 pts and be out of position on D any games really. I'm not rooting for that by any means I was so happy he came out and played as well as he did yesterday. He's fun to watch when he's on. There's no better combination of 3 guys on a team then what we have. That game we got to see just how unstoppable they could be. 86 pts with 72 from just our main 3 dudes. Imagine if CJ, Nunge, Murray and JT pitched in some more. This team should go for 95 plus almost as an expectation and that's crazy to think about. But they are plenty capable of it.

Garza is Garza you can just pencil him in for an impactful game every time. We start getting 15 plus from JBo and JW with the others all doing their part it's good night Irene for the other teams.

 

[NorthKCHawk]

Again, I am glad Fran takes the longer view, as he should. With this many offensive weapons, especially at the wing, there are going to be games where our starters only contribute 6 points. That doesn't mean you bench them. Or even think about benching them. We are ranked 5th in the country with this starting line-up. If it aint broke.....

 

[WindsorHawk]

Again, I am glad Fran takes the longer view, as he should. With this many offensive weapons, especially at the wing, there are going to be games where our starters only contribute 6 points. That doesn't mean you bench them. Or even think about benching them. We are ranked 5th in the country with this starting line-up. If it aint broke.....

Sometimes the long term view involves benching. He benched some against MD and JW responded against MN.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

Sometimes the long term view involves benching. He benched some against MD and JW responded against MN.

Very true. It's not like I'm calling on him to go be the 12th man and hardly play anymore. I'm just saying while he wasn't playing so well while at the same time Murray (prior to the MN game) had been playing very well it should have been considered had he had another bad game or 2 to have them trade their mins.

It's one thing if we didn't have any other options either to go to but we clearly do. Every game is a dog fight and we have really high goals. Sometimes shaking things up can be just the kick in the rear to get a kid going. JW is too good to be down for long he wasn't going to play poorly the rest of the year we know that. But I'd like to avoid losing games we should win while he's playing his way out of it.

Now if JW continues to play like he just did against MN we can just ignore/delete this whole thread. Which wouldn't hurt my feelings nearly as much as the rest of the leagues would be.

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

We need to keep in mind that comparing starters and back-ups is a bit of a false equivalency. Opposing coaches don't game-plan for Keegan, but they definitely game-plan for Joe, so the comparisons aren't accurate or fair. Right now, Keegan has the luxury of being the relatively unknown x-factor that comes off the bench and provides a spark.

It's not out of the realm of possibilities that if Keegan were instilled as the starter, and played starter minutes, that his performance would suffer after other teams identify his tendencies and weaknesses.

 

[PCHawk]

Bohannon, CJ, Wieskamp, Connor, Toussaint, and now Murray have all been victims of getting less minutes due to poor play.

 

[Northside Hawk]

Bohannon, CJ, Wieskamp, Connor, Toussaint, and now Murray have all been victims of getting less minutes due to poor play.

Foul trouble was a factor in many of those instances.

Which leads to the serving of crow I'm about to eat. About three weeks ago I questioned our bench and argued on these boards that it would be a big Achilles heel. Now I'm more comfortable with it. Keegan and Nunge are solid off the bench. Patrick is coming on and I like Ulis over Toussaint right now. Joe T has not impressed me this year. What is it with Fran coached teams and the sophomore slump?

 

[PCHawk]

Foul trouble was a factor in many of those instances.

Which leads to the serving of crow I'm about to eat. About three weeks ago I questioned our bench and argued on these boards that it would be a big Achilles heel. Now I'm more comfortable with it. Keegan and Nunge are solid off the bench. Patrick is coming on and I like Ulis over Toussaint right now. Joe T has not impressed me this year. What is it with Fran coached teams and the sophomore slump?

I know there are times where players sit from foul trouble, but I was excluding those times.