great win....but what's behind the inconsistency

E

engineersam

Member
we beat WI at home, beat MN, then get BLOWN out by two great teams, come back and drub MI. go back even further and there are the 'bad' losses. Yet, here we are. At the same win total as last year with most of the BIG season ahead of us.

here is my question to ponder. What is behind the inconsistency? Fran seems to have these guys ready to play. I see several items.

youth
team chemistry - a general malaise seems to drop over the team on same games, inexplicably
other?
 
i would say 3 things.

1) youth - we are really young and our best player is a soph with frosh age (marble) and our 2nd best player is white (true frosh). outside of gatens our biggest contributors cant legally drink.

2) learning system - fran is still teaching the system and he doesnt have everything in yet. i believe he has said as much.

3) size - our front court is just out matched against the msu and osu type teams. but the teams without that size advantage we are fine with.
 
engineersam said:
we beat WI at home, beat MN, then get BLOWN out by two great teams, come back and drub MI. go back even further and there are the 'bad' losses. Yet, here we are. At the same win total as last year with most of the BIG season ahead of us.

here is my question to ponder. What is behind the inconsistency? Fran seems to have these guys ready to play. I see several items.

youth
team chemistry - a general malaise seems to drop over the team on same games, inexplicably
other?
Click to expand...

MSU and OSU don't look like WI, Minn, or UM ... that is the difference. It is not an "inexplicable" maliase ... it's a drastic talent/athleticism difference.

I also think the team gets frustrated when when things are not going well which causes the bottom to fall out of some games very quickly ... see Creighton, OSU, and MSU. That probably can be chalked up to youth to some extent.
 
As well as they played today there were still things that were not good that caused mini Francanoes. I can remember three. 1. Michigan guy jacked a long 3 and a long rebound bounced right in the middle of four guys and no one went after the ball. 2. McCabe lost track of his guy in a crucial part of the game and he drains a three. 3. Basabe grabs a rebound and the guy knocks it out of his hands. Instead of going after it he casually lets it go out of bounds not knowing if it hit him or not(it did). They get the ball back and score.

These are things that should not happen and when it does Mt. Fran erupts.

This is why you saw the play of the game towards the end and that was McCabe diving after a loose ball and saving the possesion at a crucial time. It is a matter of being focused and getting after it on every possession and it is getting there.
 
I think the OSU game was a little misleading. The first half they played really tight, but couldn't hit a shot to save their lives. I think if shots fall a little bit then that game ends 10-15 pts down as opposed to 30.

MSU game just ran into a buzzsaw on the wrong night.

There is and will be a lot of incosistency, but isn't it great to play a far from perfect game today and beat a ranked team by double digits? Its pretty sweet if you ask me.
 
drew003 said:
MSU and OSU don't look like WI, Minn, or UM ... that is the difference. It is not an "inexplicable" maliase ... it's a drastic talent/athleticism difference.
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Without trying to sound like a smart a** which sometimes happens... So since NW beat MSU today we can expect the same trampling when we play them? How about us beating UM and MSU needing ot to get it done? I don't think MSU can be lumped in the O$U talent/athleticism category considering their close wins and NW loss. I think we just played like **** that game.
 
vegashawki said:
Without trying to sound like a smart a** which sometimes happens... So since NW beat MSU today we can expect the same trampling when we play them? How about us beating UM and MSU needing ot to get it done? I don't think MSU can be lumped in the O$U talent/athleticism category considering their close wins and NW loss. I think we just played like **** that game.
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The transitive property and sports don't mix.

1. MSU is just as athletic as OSU. OSU has better basketball players (though MSU's guys are no slouches, either).

2. MSU was on the road today. We played them in the Breslin Center.

3. Northwestern isn't very athletic, but they are a half-court team built around that Princeton offense. We aren't a great athletic team, but we're a run-and-gun team. When forced into a halfcourt game against teams with good-to-great big men (see: Sullinger and Green) and elite athleticism on the perimeter, we struggle. MSU and OSU both are too quick for us to run a half-court offense effectively, and swing the ball around the perimeter at lightning speed when they're on offense. Seriously, Iowa hasn't played anyone yet who moves the ball as quickly as those two teams. When you can do that, you're going to find a lot of open shooters (which they both did).

We didn't play well against either team, but we were totally outclassed from an athleticism standpoint, too. The tempo of the game was dictated to us in both games, which is something a team with our makeup can't afford.
 
tm3308 said:
The transitive property and sports don't mix.

1. MSU is just as athletic as OSU. OSU has better basketball players (though MSU's guys are no slouches, either).

2. MSU was on the road today. We played them in the Breslin Center.

3. Northwestern isn't very athletic, but they are a half-court team built around that Princeton offense. We aren't a great athletic team, but we're a run-and-gun team. When forced into a halfcourt game against teams with good-to-great big men (see: Sullinger and Green) and elite athleticism on the perimeter, we struggle. MSU and OSU both are too quick for us to run a half-court offense effectively, and swing the ball around the perimeter at lightning speed when they're on offense. Seriously, Iowa hasn't played anyone yet who moves the ball as quickly as those two teams. When you can do that, you're going to find a lot of open shooters (which they both did).

We didn't play well against either team, but we were totally outclassed from an athleticism standpoint, too. The tempo of the game was dictated to us in both games, which is something a team with our makeup can't afford.
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I will admit I'm not great when it comes to talking basketball. I just know watching NW and other B1Gs that they aren't more athletic then us like you mentioned, I get the whole playing at home advantage. It just seems like in the O$U we were out matched talent wise no doubt, but that MSU game it just seemed like our guys were off that night. I didn't see the drastic difference of talent like I did against O$U especially in that second half. But I don't really know s*** so I'll believe you.
 
vegashawki said:
Without trying to sound like a smart a** which sometimes happens... So since NW beat MSU today we can expect the same trampling when we play them? How about us beating UM and MSU needing ot to get it done? I don't think MSU can be lumped in the O$U talent/athleticism category considering their close wins and NW loss. I think we just played like **** that game.
Click to expand...

Just because other average programs like NW can play with MSU or OSU doesn't mean we can. NW plays a slow down, 3 point oriented, style of basketball which is designed to negate athleticism/talent differences. The want a low scoring game, which as few as possessions as possible.

We play an attacking brand of basketball, where we are willing to push the basketball, shoot quick, send guys to the offensive boards, play trapping defense, ect... Drastic athletic differences really make it hard for us to do this ... as the team we are playing is probably can run real well on our quick shots, turn us over if easier since we are playing at quick place, and get back on transition defense easier. We also cant' attack the basket as well against these teams (our entire offensive strategy) as their perimeter defenders and quick and strong and they have jumping jack bigs to protect the rims.

I don't think its a coincidence that we got pummeled by the two teams with NBA caliber athletes up and down their lineup, and played with (even handled) the 4 other Big 10 teams we've played that don't.
 
drew003 said:
Just because other average programs like NW can play with MSU or OSU doesn't mean we can. NW plays a slow down, 3 point oriented, style of basketball which is designed to negate athleticism/talent differences. The want a low scoring game, which as few as possessions as possible.

We play an attacking brand of basketball, where we are willing to push the basketball, shoot quick, send guys to the offensive boards, play trapping defense, ect... Drastic athletic differences really make it hard for us to do this ... as the team we are playing is probably can run real well on our quick shots, turn us over if easier since we are playing at quick place, and get back on transition defense easier. We also cant' attack the basket as well against these teams (our entire offensive strategy) as their perimeter defenders and quick and strong and they have jumping jack bigs to protect the rims.

I don't think its a coincidence that we got pummeled by the two teams with NBA caliber athletes up and down their lineup, and played with (even handled) the 4 other Big 10 teams we've played that don't.
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This. None of the teams we've beaten have that blend. They all have at least one NBA-caliber player, but they don't have the kind of top-to-bottom athleticism of OSU or MSU.
 
One thing in common with all of the Iowa wins? The other team had an AWFUL day shooting from beyond the arc...Iowa has gotten lucky. They are getting better but they got some help finally from the bball gods...we see the difference when teams are on (Creighton, others etc) and off (UW, Minny, UM)

I'll take the wins though, but this team still has some glaring issues that hopefully Woody and co will help fill.
 
drew003 said:
Just because other average programs like NW can play with MSU or OSU doesn't mean we can. NW plays a slow down, 3 point oriented, style of basketball which is designed to negate athleticism/talent differences. The want a low scoring game, which as few as possessions as possible.

We play an attacking brand of basketball, where we are willing to push the basketball, shoot quick, send guys to the offensive boards, play trapping defense, ect... Drastic athletic differences really make it hard for us to do this ... as the team we are playing is probably can run real well on our quick shots, turn us over if easier since we are playing at quick place, and get back on transition defense easier. We also cant' attack the basket as well against these teams (our entire offensive strategy) as their perimeter defenders and quick and strong and they have jumping jack bigs to protect the rims.

I don't think its a coincidence that we got pummeled by the two teams with NBA caliber athletes up and down their lineup, and played with (even handled) the 4 other Big 10 teams we've played that don't.
Click to expand...


So for us to compete we would have to completely change our game plan? Which I'm guessing we don't have the talent for so... we just have to take our lumps as Fran continues to get his recruits and build the program? Not worth mixing up our game plan against team we are clearly outmatched talent wise?
 
HawkForce said:
One thing in common with all of the Iowa wins? The other team had an AWFUL day shooting from beyond the arc...Iowa has gotten lucky. They are getting better but they got some help finally from the bball gods...we see the difference when teams are on (Creighton, others etc) and off (UW, Minny, UM)

I'll take the wins though, but this team still has some glaring issues that hopefully Woody and co will help fill.
Click to expand...

This is bologna. UM missed 3's today, because Iowa didn't give them many good looks. Minnesota missed 3's because they are a terrible 3 point shooting team and we wanted them to shoot 3's. I'll give you Wisconsin too some extent.

Our UW, Minn, and UM wins were not flukes. We controlled each of those games.
 
vegashawki said:
drew003 said:
Just because other average programs like NW can play with MSU or OSU doesn't mean we can. NW plays a slow down, 3 point oriented, style of basketball which is designed to negate athleticism/talent differences. The want a low scoring game, which as few as possessions as possible. We play an attacking brand of basketball, where we are willing to push the basketball, shoot quick, send guys to the offensive boards, play trapping defense, ect... Drastic athletic differences really make it hard for us to do this ... as the team we are playing is probably can run real well on our quick shots, turn us over if easier since we are playing at quick place, and get back on transition defense easier. We also cant' attack the basket as well against these teams (our entire offensive strategy) as their perimeter defenders and quick and strong and they have jumping jack bigs to protect the rims. I don't think its a coincidence that we got pummeled by the two teams with NBA caliber athletes up and down their lineup, and played with (even handled) the 4 other Big 10 teams we've played that don't.
Click to expand...
So for us to compete we would have to completely change our game plan? Which I'm guessing we don't have the talent for so... we just have to take our lumps as Fran continues to get his recruits and build the program? Not worth mixing up our game plan against team we are clearly outmatched talent wise?
Click to expand...

You are kind of a tool man. Mich did not shoot well from 3 today, but if you watched the game you would have noticed the increased intensity of Iowa on the defensive side of the ball. Mich shot a lot of contested 3s and not that many wide open ones. Michigan's poor shooting today was a product of good Iowa defense, not luck. Give the squad some credit.
 
you cannot play 39 minutes and expect to win. fran expects full 40 minutes of hustle, good attitude, hard nose basketball.
 
drew003 said:
This is bologna. UM missed 3's today, because Iowa didn't give them many good looks. Minnesota missed 3's because they are a terrible 3 point shooting team and we wanted them to shoot 3's. I'll give you Wisconsin too some extent.

Our UW, Minn, and UM wins were not flukes. We controlled each of those games.
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Purdue didn't shoot well against us from 3, either. OSU and MSU did because 1. They have good shooters, and 2. They swing the ball around so quickly against our zone that they found an open man consistently. We just weren't able to rotate quickly enough.

We've been able to force teams to take less than ideal shots. Wisky was kind of off anyway, and the way we were playing made it worse.
 
vegashawki said:
So for us to compete we would have to completely change our game plan? Which I'm guessing we don't have the talent for so... we just have to take our lumps as Fran continues to get his recruits and build the program? Not worth mixing up our game plan against team we are clearly outmatched talent wise?
Click to expand...

I think Fran is trying to create style of basketball. We have to play that style against teams we don't match-up great well. We can't just roll-out the Princeton offense for OSU and MSU.

But I think you are right. The style of ball Fran plays relies on talent. Players have a lot offensive freedom, encouraged to play in transition, a fair amount of isolation plays to attack the basket. You need good players to play this style of ball. We don't run some gimmick Lickliter style of basketball. You are going to need pretty good players to beat really good teams with this style of ball. Fortunately, not that many teams in the Big 10 has are drastically more talented than us, and talented kids like to play Fran's style of ball.

What I like about Fran, as opposed to Lick, is Fran isn't naive enough to think he can win big without talent. Fran has recruited relentless and implemented a style of ball that allows talented players to showcase their skills.

I believe Fran when he says he's trying to win titles. That's the style of ball he is trying to implement.
 
tm3308 said:
drew003 said:
This is bologna. UM missed 3's today, because Iowa didn't give them many good looks. Minnesota missed 3's because they are a terrible 3 point shooting team and we wanted them to shoot 3's. I'll give you Wisconsin too some extent. Our UW, Minn, and UM wins were not flukes. We controlled each of those games.
Click to expand...
Purdue didn't shoot well against us from 3, either. OSU and MSU did because 1. They have good shooters, and 2. They swing the ball around so quickly against our zone that they found an open man consistently. We just weren't able to rotate quickly enough.We've been able to force teams to take less than ideal shots. Wisky was kind of off anyway, and the way we were playing made it worse.
Click to expand...

This coming from a dude that covered a swim meet all day :)

Agree 100% thou
 
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