coaches working the refs

[PCHawk]

The more I think about it the more I wonder how this is even allowed. Coaches aren't even allowed to mention the refs after the game but they can do pretty much whatever they want during the game.

It's gotten to the point where working the refs is one of the head coach's main jobs during the game. Do we really want this tactic to have such an impact on the outcome of games? What's the point?

I really wish they would put a zero tolerance rule on coaches questioning calls. Imagine how much better officials would be at their jobs.

I've never officiated before but I assume its like everything else. Some days you're more on your game then others and the game slows down so you see things more clear. I also assume that when you get rattled by outside distractions you get worse at it.

So many calls are based on the wrong things. It's not even about what the refs see a lot of the time. It's about a make up call, or evening up the team fouls, or appeasing a head coach. How can a game be called consistently when officials are constantly scrambling to make things right?

I really feel like refs could be a lot better at their job if they could just get into their own little bubble and concentrate on their job without coaches making them question their decision after every call. An added bonus would be not having to watch coaches act like idiots trying to "play the game". What do you guys think? Is there any way the NCAA could make this work?

 

[Hawkstrat]

Fran has a reputation for getting on refs, but if you really watch him, he doesn't work the refs often, but when he does he blows up.

Guys like Izzo and Ryan, are constantly harping on the officials and both have this insanely annoying incredulous look every time a foul is called on their team.

 

[PCHawk]

Allowing it promotes bullying and favoritism. It's stupid that they ever let it become such a big part of the game.

 

[kicker22]

Fran has a reputation for getting on refs, but if you really watch him, he doesn't work the refs often, but when he does he blows up.

Guys like Izzo and Ryan, are constantly harping on the officials and both have this insanely annoying incredulous look every time a foul is called on their team.

I think thats the key. Most coaches continually "work" the official so their passion/complaints slowly escalate at a leisurely pace. I think officials understand that and therefore Coach A "is just whining a bit more than he was a few minutes ago, so I'll let it go since he's been doing it all game". With Fran its "crickets, crickets, crickets, and then suddenly irate guy with a red face charging at me yelling and screaming, I'm not going to put up with this".

My honest opinion is officials in all sports will put up with a lot more if its a gradual buildup rather than a flip of the switch tantrum.

 

[PCHawk]

I think thats the key. Most coaches continually "work" the official so their passion/complaints slowly escalate at a leisurely pace. I think officials understand that and therefore Coach A "is just whining a bit more than he was a few minutes ago, so I'll let it go since he's been doing it all game". With Fran its "crickets, crickets, crickets, and then suddenly irate guy with a red face charging at me yelling and screaming, I'm not going to put up with this".

My honest opinion is officials in all sports will put up with a lot more if its a gradual buildup rather than a flip of the switch tantrum.

Thats a good point, I never even thought about that. I just don't understand the point in allowing it at all. Does the NCAA want officials to base their calls on what coaches say or do they want them to base every call on what they consider to be the right call? If its the ladder then there's no point in even allowing it.

 

[WaterboyHawkeye]

What the coaches and crowd do shouldn't matter. Refs are out there to call the game the way it goes. No ******** calls cuz they need to even out the count or anything else. And if it's not gonna be that way then don't be an official. You're job isn't to please coaches and fans. It's to call fouls when it's a foul. No excexception. People are saying refs weren't an issue cuz they called plenty in the first 7 mins or whatever. That's not the point. The point is MSU coulda been called for 40 more fouls if officials called it based off of the rules like they're supposed to. That's their one job and they fail to do it. Emphasizing the "hand check" this year... My ***. Either call it by the rules or don't call anything.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

What the coaches and crowd do shouldn't matter. Refs are out there to call the game the way it goes. No ******** calls cuz they need to even out the count or anything else. And if it's not gonna be that way then don't be an official. You're job isn't to please coaches and fans. It's to call fouls when it's a foul. No excexception. People are saying refs weren't an issue cuz they called plenty in the first 7 mins or whatever. That's not the point. The point is MSU coulda been called for 40 more fouls if officials called it based off of the rules like they're supposed to. That's their one job and they fail to do it. Emphasizing the "hand check" this year... My ***. Either call it by the rules or don't call anything.

I was always skeptical that this was going to happen all year long.

I wonder what the "point of emphasis" will be next year? It seems to be something different each year. Instead of emphasizing something, I wish they would just call the game the way it is supposed to be called and call it the same on both ends of the floor. Yeah, I can wish in one hand, and, well... You know.

 

[SpiderRico]

What the coaches and crowd do shouldn't matter. Refs are out there to call the game the way it goes. No ******** calls cuz they need to even out the count or anything else. And if it's not gonna be that way then don't be an official. You're job isn't to please coaches and fans. It's to call fouls when it's a foul. No excexception. People are saying refs weren't an issue cuz they called plenty in the first 7 mins or whatever. That's not the point. The point is MSU coulda been called for 40 more fouls if officials called it based off of the rules like they're supposed to. That's their one job and they fail to do it. Emphasizing the "hand check" this year... My ***. Either call it by the rules or don't call anything.

The handchecks weren't even the worst part. On essentially every single cut, curl and screen we were running, MSUs guys were holding, grabbing, pulling jerseys, and everything else they could to disrupt our motion. For a team like ours that bases its entire half court offense on motion and making reads, it kills us. Yet there are 3 guys placed strategically to ensure this doesn't happen. I can't count how many times Borowski or Seratore just stood there and watched this happen and didn't do a damn thing about it after the initial barrage of calls they made in the first 3 minutes of the 2nd half. Yet they had no problem calling BS moving screens on us.

It's literally unwatchable anymore. The officials, and more specifically, the B1G conference itself, has allowed it's league to go from a fun, high flying, high octane offensive league to being a complete bullying, thuggish, "Detroit Bad Boys" league. It's ruined the pureness of the sport and that's unfortunate.

 

[83Hawk]

It rankles me when those that defend coaches like Izzo being able work the refs and get the calls, respond with "he's earned it by winning the national championship and going to multiple final fours". Huh? What does that have to do with it? Letting Izzo act like an ape, jumping around, screaming, wander way out of the coaches box, grabbing officials by the arm, etc, while other coaches get T'd up for looking sideways at a ref is wrong. Just plain wrong.

You can't have two sets of rules.

 

[kicker22]

I guess my problem isn't so much what the refs let go or what they didn't call, but rather how we responded. I think in the second half we simply lost our intensity. MSU raised the level of physicality, the officials established that they were for the most part going to let them play, and our intensity level dropped. We needed to raise our intensity and increase the physicality to match MSU and we didn't.

 

[kicker22]

It rankles me when those that defend coaches like Izzo being able work the refs and get the calls, respond with "he's earned it by winning the national championship and going to multiple final fours". Huh? What does that have to do with it? Letting Izzo act like an ape, jumping around, screaming, wander way out of the coaches box, grabbing officials by the arm, etc, while other coaches get T'd up for looking sideways at a ref is wrong. Just plain wrong.

You can't have two sets of rules.

I don't necessarily see it as two different sets of rules. I think Izzo has figured out what will and won't be called a foul and coaches that. I also think that his antics on the sideline are the same way. He knows what he can and cannot get away with on the sideline and doesn't allow himself to cross that line. I don't think Fran has figured that part out yet.

 

[Casey388]

I guess my problem isn't so much what the refs let go or what they didn't call, but rather how we responded. I think in the second half we simply lost our intensity. MSU raised the level of physicality, the officials established that they were for the most part going to let them play, and our intensity level dropped. We needed to raise our intensity and increase the physicality to match MSU and we didn't.

Also when we raised our level of physicality to the same level that MSU was doing in the second half, McCabe got hit with a technical.

 

[kirby]

I don't necessarily see it as two different sets of rules. I think Izzo has figured out what will and won't be called a foul and coaches that. I also think that his antics on the sideline are the same way. He knows what he can and cannot get away with on the sideline and doesn't allow himself to cross that line. I don't think Fran has figured that part out yet.

How is it not two sets of expectations? MSU defenders play "defense" that forces our guards to stumble backwards to regain their balance. No call. Why? Well, lots of rationale can be given, but it is still a foul. Maybe a lot of calls went against MSU early. Maybe Iowa was in the bonus early. Maybe it is a TV timeout in the next minute. It's still a foul. Then, to get to a TV timeout, they call Marble for touching a MSU player lightly on the back off the ball that did not affect the play.

I'm sick of the need to "even" out the calls and calls to get the TV timeout in. Just sick of it and so is our team and the coach. One team can foul more than the other. It's allowed. If called by the rules, MSU would change their style, and I thought that was the goal this year.

 

[MisterLucky]

What the coaches and crowd do shouldn't matter. Refs are out there to call the game the way it goes. No ******** calls cuz they need to even out the count or anything else. And if it's not gonna be that way then don't be an official. You're job isn't to please coaches and fans. It's to call fouls when it's a foul. No excexception. People are saying refs weren't an issue cuz they called plenty in the first 7 mins or whatever. That's not the point. The point is MSU coulda been called for 40 more fouls if officials called it based off of the rules like they're supposed to. That's their one job and they fail to do it. Emphasizing the "hand check" this year... My ***. Either call it by the rules or don't call anything.

The refs did both in the second half last night. It was obvious that Izzo told his troops to goon it up in the second half. The refs called five quick fouls on them, each one reacted to more egregiously by Tommy, and then decided to call nothing. Not sure what game was being played in the second half, but it wasn't basketball as the rules were written.

 

[PCHawk]

I don't necessarily see it as two different sets of rules. I think Izzo has figured out what will and won't be called a foul and coaches that. I also think that his antics on the sideline are the same way. He knows what he can and cannot get away with on the sideline and doesn't allow himself to cross that line. I don't think Fran has figured that part out yet.

I agree with the part about knowing what antics he can get away with but I don't agree with the first part of your post at all. He doesn't teach them to guard as physically as possible without getting a foul. They strait up break the rules the entire time until the refs simply give up on calling it.

People are saying we need to match their physicality but how do we do that when the refs are already calling us for moving screens before the ball even crosses half court, just to "even up the fouls"? It's amazing how them fouling the entire time forces the refs to call the game looser on their end and tighter on our end.

The game against them at carver was the closest I've seen to the officials trying to call it right. But even that game they didn't call anywhere near all the holding and hand checking. They simply will not call that many fouls. Then of course they have to call the random illegal screen or slight touch on us just to get a couple minutes of peace from izzo hounding them.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Thats a good point, I never even thought about that. I just don't understand the point in allowing it at all. Does the NCAA want officials to base their calls on what coaches say or do they want them to base every call on what they consider to be the right call? If its the ladder then there's no point in even allowing it.

But that absolutely brings a subjectivity into the game in which officials treat one coach differnetly than another and that is the problem. Officials are supposed to be like Joe Friday: "Just the facts..." and 100% impartial.

 

[PCHawk]

But that absolutely brings a subjectivity into the game in which officials treat one coach differnetly than another and that is the problem. Officials are supposed to be like Joe Friday: "Just the facts..." and 100% impartial.

Either you misread my post or I'm misreading yours but I agree with what you're saying.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

The handchecks weren't even the worst part. On essentially every single cut, curl and screen we were running, MSUs guys were holding, grabbing, pulling jerseys, and everything else they could to disrupt our motion. For a team like ours that bases its entire half court offense on motion and making reads, it kills us. Yet there are 3 guys placed strategically to ensure this doesn't happen. I can't count how many times Borowski or Seratore just stood there and watched this happen and didn't do a damn thing about it after the initial barrage of calls they made in the first 3 minutes of the 2nd half. Yet they had no problem calling BS moving screens on us.

It's literally unwatchable anymore. The officials, and more specifically, the B1G conference itself, has allowed it's league to go from a fun, high flying, high octane offensive league to being a complete bullying, thuggish, "Detroit Bad Boys" league. It's ruined the pureness of the sport and that's unfortunate.

Bingo! I've been searching for these very words but couldn't quite find them. That is exactly what is happening. Basketball is the one team sport that can be beautiful to watch with constant and choreographed movement. Sadley, basketball it isn't that, anymore.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Either you misread my post or I'm misreading yours but I agree with what you're saying.

PC, I think we're saying the same thing. You described what is happening with today's officials and I just put my opinion on what I feel that means.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

The refs did both in the second half last night. It was obvious that Izzo told his troops to goon it up in the second half. The refs called five quick fouls on them, each one reacted to more egregiously by Tommy, and then decided to call nothing. Not sure what game was being played in the second half, but it wasn't basketball as the rules were written.

I wouldn't be surprised if fIzzo told the refs, "go ahead, keep on calling those fouls. we ain't changing so feel free to foul my entire team out." cuz the correct foul calls damn sure stopped right away and abruptly after fIzzo had his discussion with the refs after the 5 minute mark