HuckFinn
Well-Known Member
Damn good post, Fry. No more compliments on deck…
The War
- Thread starter NCHawker
- Start date
thedukeofearl
Well-Known Member
Most Excellent Post, Fry
You appear to be a bit of a scholar
Very comprehensive and Right on Target
MelroseHawkins
Well-Known Member
I thought so to.
MelroseHawkins
Well-Known Member
Good in my eyes. Every past president knew they should deal with that mess after 40 yrs of it. Nobody had the balls to do anything about it. You can say thanks 5 yrs down the road when you realize the benefits of it.
MelroseHawkins
Well-Known Member
I was just having a conversation with my wife the other day how religions divide people more than unite them. Being spiritual & being religious are two very different things. Funny thing is, most Christian religions all pretty much believe in the same thing, they just use their religious beliefs to divide themselves from the others. It, as many things, is just a fight for more power & $$$.
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
Please enlighten us about the benefits of this war. Most every reasonable human thinks it's an expensive quagmire. Or don't. That's fine too. You really won't get any truth from our administration or Faux news.
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
And can you expand that line of thinking to the Iran war? Why are we doing this for Israel?
Of course cause this is the most dangerous war ever maybe. They are indeed radicals and may just use a nuke. Russians didn't want to. They didn't want to die. Russian threat vs. the radical muslim threat. Gimme the Ole Soviets any day.
Our presidents either tried sanctions which never worked or payed them money. In that respect they laughed at all our presidents and us. kind of embarrassing. This time we are speaking their language. Even though Trump did the obligatory deal talks things but that was silly as a radical theology that requires them to conquer and install governance over both the Middle East states and the Western civilization before their messiah comes. The paper any proposed deal was written might as well say Charmin on it LOL. They are not like us and they won't stop or give up or honor any deal even if they enter one and play pretend esp. if it gets them economic benefit.
History repeats and we know the quote about being doomed to repeat it. So know about 1979 and since and the Red/Green alliance both back then and today. Search Pickaxe mountain.
Did we not see Europe get schooled after sticking their heads in the sand and not getting involved even though it is closer to them than us. Then they have missiles that went 2,500 miles and could reach some big European cities. Ooop! Of course it is up to us to do something since nobody else will. Just look at Europe now which is being infiltrated and changed fundamentally. You see what the plans are for us if we don't wise the eff up. Don't forget that China is helping Iran militarily and economically. That is how missiles get modified and go 2,500 miles when they only have so much range.
Don't want to hear about US wants oil or Isreal wants land. First is true and the second is a right wing conspiracy theory that hasn't been proven. Everybody wants something right and who cares cause IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT IRAN HAS TO BE DEALT WITH! Which brings up the imminent thing...
Great strategy waiting till they are an "imminent" threat. War won't be cheaper in the future and a stronger foe means more dead soldiers more bases hit or even destroyed and if we screw up and underestimate their tech they will be able to reach our shore one day and working with China and Russia who knows when that might be. Russia is "enabling" Iran while China and Iran have an actual 25 year strategic partnership. Hmmm, China and Iran who both wants us conquered and dead since China encouraged the flights to come in here during covid and they with their Fentanyl push certainly hope to kill Americans. So not just the radicals that gun down 40,000 of their own citizens that want to see a bunch of our people dead.
Trump had the guts to do it and he of course has to do it while he is in office and it is stupid to wait till they are ramping up and stronger it kind of had to be done. Other countries don't want to deal with the threat and Israel can't do it alone, Europe is feckless.
HuckFinn
Well-Known Member
You missed a key point. Obama had a signed, sealed, and delivered deal with Iran.
MelroseHawkins
Well-Known Member
Freaking great post and spot on. How some people don't see it is beyond me. Some people choose not to see it. I guarantee if a democrat president had the guts to do it, those like Western above would be supporting it 110%. But, since it is the Trumper, it's BAD.......!!
HuckFinn
Well-Known Member
You are still as crazy as ever.
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
Some people are quite gullible. Propaganda works.
MelroseHawkins
Well-Known Member
.................... Signed, Whatever. ^^
Indeed I didn't specifically mention the deal but it is part of the Obama and Biden give them $$$ to appease them or make them behave thing I did mention. The deal had the Sunset clause, the 24 day delay before inspections, it didn't address ballistic missiles, or curtail funding/backing of the proxy groups, and gave them sanctions relief fairly early on. So, I still say the same thing with the deal he just gave Iran $$$ to behave as far as nuclear weapon production which was not gonna end well.
Did they behave? Did they hide stuff? The Regimes reputation would make me skeptical that they totally behaved. Even if I give you they were perfectly well behaved and honored the nuke provision totally that it just bought some good behavior for a period of time. Have to agree that the deal did not eliminate their desire to have nukes. Just pushed the problem down the road till later.
What about the $$$ given or released to them in the deal. Any accountability? No provision against funding the proxy groups. So, how do we know that money didn't go to terrorist activities and hurt and kill people? Obama'a FAA overhaul as we know now with current complaints about ancient equipment and needed upgrades and repairs that that money wasn't followed and accounted for to be used for what it was earmarked for right here in the U.S. Expect us to believe they were making sure Iranian leaders were using those funds from the deal for good things to help the Iranian citizens and wasn't used to fund terrorism. Obama never known for keeping track of money and his time was known for waste and abuse.
Nothing good really comes from giving $$$ to terrorist regimes. You can literally do a deal but you can't do a deal cause if they sign a bad one for them you can't trust them at all and if you sign a good one for them bad things will happen esp. when they get $$$. look at Biden releasing funds to Iran and not long after October 7th happened and 48 Americans were killed. You want to argue if those funds were the actual ones or not? We won't know for sure if it was that influx of cash specifically that funded Hamas' attack. That we paid them off and it got some of our people killed. Good chance it was though. Of course what about that Obama deal? What did that pay for? Not a good deal if your selling point like Obama said "not perfect but it was what we could get" and even if they behaved as far as nukes but used the $$$ to fund other terrorist activities is that what we want? Is that a good deal?
HuckFinn
Well-Known Member
Obama released $$ back to Iran that had been frozen. Not our money. Look it up.
Your arguments are so full of “what if’s “that speculation on your part runs rampant with no identifiable truths.. But the bottom line is that Obama negotiated a deal, likely With compromise, while Trump bombed a school, closed the Strait, drove the economy to a breaking point in the energy section and watched American soldiers die or suffer serious wounds in the hundreds. You are making a fool of yourself. . Give it up. Trump has entered into a forever war with no existing exit strategy. Korea, VietNam, Iraq, Afghanistan, now Iran. But he won’t ever learn from history. Yawn.
We held thatt money since the 70's. Why release it to them when you know what they will do with it and without and provision against funding proxy groups or using it for military stuff. They had oil money. I don't think you'll convince me or others that the Obama deal was good.
Again with the declaring this a forever war. 3.5 months active combat time is not a forever war. This was not gonna be Venezuela. Hopefully they can be weakened enough without boots on the ground so that the people can make a change themselves. No point in declaring anything like "Vietnam"!!! till we find out how it actually will Turn out. Same ole, same ole. Trump is turning the economy around but it isn't fast enough so detractors get to complain and twist and try to blame him for digging the hole in the first place. An Iran war wasn't gonna be quick or easy. The reason why no one else wanted to deal with it. I won't declare anything. Let's see how it ends then declare what it actually turns out to be.
Fryowa
Administrator
Lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
What we should be doing in this country is taking the billions spent on the war and pumping it into converting our refineries over to light sweet crude production. Then we wouldn't need to worry about Iran, Israel, or the SOH one single iota.
For anyone who doesn't know what I'm taking about or doesn't understand the oil dynamic, here it is...
We produce (and have in the ground) a ridiculous amount of oil in the United States. WAY more than what we actually need. So why aren't we using it? Why are we concerned with middle eastern oil and hence brought into every conflict over there? That's the question that people uneducated on the topic just keep asking ad nauseum...
Go back to the beginning of the industrial revolution in the US. What do you need in an industrial revolution in any country, more than anything else? Fuel. Fuel to power things. Other than coal, for the US that meant we needed oil. Oil makes grease, kerosene, diesel fuel, gasoline, and well...oil...All the stuff needed to make and use machinery and power transportation in it's many forms. Nowadays it's main use is vehicle fuel in planes, trains, and automobiles. But back then it was everything. BTW the oil we have in the ground in the US is called light sweet crude which will be important later.
Waaaaaaay back in the day we started to find oil all over the United States. Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky, and then we eventually found a LOT of it in Texas and Oklahoma. But there were a few problems...
The oil we had discovered at the time wasn't enough, we didn't have enough refining capacity, and refining it was really expensive. Eventually people started discovering oil all over the world, and people in the US started to find out that it was easier and actually cheaper to buy oil from Canada, Latin America, and the Middle East, have it shipped here, and refine it. Because what they all had was heavy sour crude...a different type of oil that took a different process to refine...but way more abundant in total and cheaper to buy/refine. Let 'em kill each other dear if that's what both sides really, truly believe in...WGAF? Nothing's going to stop that conflict.
Everything's hunky dory, right? We build our refineries to process the cheap/easy stuff we buy on the market, and we sell our own light/sweet stuff to the schmucks who don't have a choice and aren't major market powers like we are...and we still come out money ahead...win/win, am I right?
Nope. Because as soon as the middle easterners start fighting over their imaginary men in the sky, they also start making things miserable on everyone else as leverage to get what they want. Some of you blue hairs might remember when gas was so cheap it didn't make a dent in your finances. It was an afterthought like toilet paper or coffee grounds. But then the Arabs and Jews started getting mad about what they thought their imaginary men in the sky told them belonged to them, and they started having fistfights among themselves and using oil as the carrot. They know oil is the only card they hold and EVERYONE wants that card. But the problem is no one ever gets what they want because by god, their men in the sky told them the land was THEIRS dammit...
So fast forward 100 years and here we sit...we have plenty of oil and no way to refine 82% of it because our refineries weren't built to do it. We are beholden to what has turned into a 100% global market and no way out other than to get "involved" in the middle east.
What we need to do is consider refinery conversion to be our #1 most important political and security issue and start pouring money into converting it. I don't even care if we nationalize it for 20 years like the airlines were. Will there be bureaucracy and corruption like there was at the airlines? Yep. Will it cost more than it needs to? Yep. Will it always run smoothly? Nope. But whether you like the idea or not, the juice is worth the squeeze, folks. If we took 20 years and made refinery conversion the absolute top priority (along with nuclear plant construction, but I digress), we'd be truly energy-independent and we could let Benny and the Jets and all the different Arab Clubs fight it out til their little hearts' content.
What we should be doing in this country is taking the billions spent on the war and pumping it into converting our refineries over to light sweet crude production. Then we wouldn't need to worry about Iran, Israel, or the SOH one single iota.
For anyone who doesn't know what I'm taking about or doesn't understand the oil dynamic, here it is...
We produce (and have in the ground) a ridiculous amount of oil in the United States. WAY more than what we actually need. So why aren't we using it? Why are we concerned with middle eastern oil and hence brought into every conflict over there? That's the question that people uneducated on the topic just keep asking ad nauseum...
Go back to the beginning of the industrial revolution in the US. What do you need in an industrial revolution in any country, more than anything else? Fuel. Fuel to power things. Other than coal, for the US that meant we needed oil. Oil makes grease, kerosene, diesel fuel, gasoline, and well...oil...All the stuff needed to make and use machinery and power transportation in it's many forms. Nowadays it's main use is vehicle fuel in planes, trains, and automobiles. But back then it was everything. BTW the oil we have in the ground in the US is called light sweet crude which will be important later.
Waaaaaaay back in the day we started to find oil all over the United States. Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky, and then we eventually found a LOT of it in Texas and Oklahoma. But there were a few problems...
The oil we had discovered at the time wasn't enough, we didn't have enough refining capacity, and refining it was really expensive. Eventually people started discovering oil all over the world, and people in the US started to find out that it was easier and actually cheaper to buy oil from Canada, Latin America, and the Middle East, have it shipped here, and refine it. Because what they all had was heavy sour crude...a different type of oil that took a different process to refine...but way more abundant in total and cheaper to buy/refine. Let 'em kill each other dear if that's what both sides really, truly believe in...WGAF? Nothing's going to stop that conflict.
Everything's hunky dory, right? We build our refineries to process the cheap/easy stuff we buy on the market, and we sell our own light/sweet stuff to the schmucks who don't have a choice and aren't major market powers like we are...and we still come out money ahead...win/win, am I right?
Nope. Because as soon as the middle easterners start fighting over their imaginary men in the sky, they also start making things miserable on everyone else as leverage to get what they want. Some of you blue hairs might remember when gas was so cheap it didn't make a dent in your finances. It was an afterthought like toilet paper or coffee grounds. But then the Arabs and Jews started getting mad about what they thought their imaginary men in the sky told them belonged to them, and they started having fistfights among themselves and using oil as the carrot. They know oil is the only card they hold and EVERYONE wants that card. But the problem is no one ever gets what they want because by god, their men in the sky told them the land was THEIRS dammit...
So fast forward 100 years and here we sit...we have plenty of oil and no way to refine 82% of it because our refineries weren't built to do it. We are beholden to what has turned into a 100% global market and no way out other than to get "involved" in the middle east.
What we need to do is consider refinery conversion to be our #1 most important political and security issue and start pouring money into converting it. I don't even care if we nationalize it for 20 years like the airlines were. Will there be bureaucracy and corruption like there was at the airlines? Yep. Will it cost more than it needs to? Yep. Will it always run smoothly? Nope. But whether you like the idea or not, the juice is worth the squeeze, folks. If we took 20 years and made refinery conversion the absolute top priority (along with nuclear plant construction, but I digress), we'd be truly energy-independent and we could let Benny and the Jets and all the different Arab Clubs fight it out til their little hearts' content.
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
Are we sure we completely eliminated their nuclear capability? No, we aren't sure.
Did we force a regime change? Also, no.
Did we make everything more expensive? YES
Did we further erode our relationships in the world? Likely
Did we spend a hell of a lot of taxpayer money? HELLS yeah. Independent estimates say it's now close to $100B. That money could do a lot of good in our country. Also, it isn't over.
Why are we the proxy for Israel?
I'll never understand the minds of the folks who support this war wholeheartedly. Having said that, it's a pretty small percentage of Americans. Polls that came out today suggest that Trump's approval is cratering, and that over 70% of Americans disapprove of this war. Does the will of the people matter? We shall see I guess.
Did we force a regime change? Also, no.
Did we make everything more expensive? YES
Did we further erode our relationships in the world? Likely
Did we spend a hell of a lot of taxpayer money? HELLS yeah. Independent estimates say it's now close to $100B. That money could do a lot of good in our country. Also, it isn't over.
Why are we the proxy for Israel?
I'll never understand the minds of the folks who support this war wholeheartedly. Having said that, it's a pretty small percentage of Americans. Polls that came out today suggest that Trump's approval is cratering, and that over 70% of Americans disapprove of this war. Does the will of the people matter? We shall see I guess.
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
Shifting Timelines and Estimates
- Initial Projection (Late February / Early March 2026): At the start of the conflict, When asked how long the attacks would continue, Trump said, as noted by PBS, “Well, we intended four to five weeks.” [1]
- Early Claims of Victory (March 2026): Trump described the campaign as a "short-term excursion" and stated that the war would conclude "very soon", claiming at various points that the U.S. had already won or that operations were ahead of schedule. [1, 2]
- Shorter Deadlines (June 2026): During temporary diplomatic openings, Trump told reporters the conflict would wrap up in "two or three days". [1]
We started a war we don’t have the stomach to win, we radicalized their government even more, and we’ve emboldened them because now they know they can screw the entire world over by merely shooting some rockets in the straight.
We are not dealing with Iran in any way, shape, or form. And the only thing I liked about Trump was he kept us out of foreign wars. He said he wouldn’t do this, he said Kamala would do it, then he went and did it anyway with no exit strategy other than hope.
He lied to everybody in this country. You Don’t need to lie to yourself too.
