Should the NCAA convert to freestyle or fix folkstyle?

[#1DieHardHawk]

There's been increasing noise behind the scenes about whether or not NCAA Wrestling should adopt freestyle.

It makes sense when you consider the world and Olympic stages, and also makes sense when you factor in the boring aspects of folk.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. Both styles have unappealing aspects, IMO. Folkstyle needs more action, while freestyle needs more mat involvement and less involvement of the officials.

If we see modifications, what I'd like to see:

1. Eliminate RT.
2. Initiate a clock when on the mat. If no turn, pin or escape after, say, 40 seconds, stand them up. FS stands up too fast, IMO. Good mat skills should be rewarded.
3. No Par terre.
4. No passivity. Way too subjective. There is no consistency with the international officials.
5. No push-outs. Instead, keep "stalling" (or change the term to passivity), but if you step out during the stall, award a point to the opponent.
6. Keep three periods.
7. Eliminate the current OT set-up. Do a 3-minute SD, then criteria if necessary.

 

[Sighhawk]

Fix Folkstyle, That starts with the Refs. being consistent

 

[Grady]

There's been increasing noise behind the scenes about whether or not NCAA Wrestling should adopt freestyle.

It makes sense when you consider the world and Olympic stages, and also makes sense when you factor in the boring aspects of folk.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. Both styles have unappealing aspects, IMO. Folkstyle needs more action, while freestyle needs more mat involvement and less involvement of the officials.

If we see modifications, what I'd like to see:

1. Eliminate RT.
2. Initiate a clock when on the mat. If no turn, pin or escape after, say, 40 seconds, stand them up. FS stands up too fast, IMO. Good mat skills should be rewarded.
3. No Par terre.
4. No passivity. Way too subjective. There is no consistency with the international officials.
5. No push-outs. Instead, keep "stalling" (or change the term to passivity), but if you step out during the stall, award a point to the opponent.
6. Keep three periods.
7. Eliminate the current OT set-up. Do a 3-minute SD, then criteria if necessary.

An excellent post to start discussion.
I don't know enough about freestyle to comment intelligently, other than in the matches I've watched there seems to be a lot of ref subjectivity which impacts the match, and overall I'm not a big fan.

Folkstyle could use some modernization and updating, but I'm not sure how to do it. Mixed feelings about it, like you. Most of your suggestions are good ones.

I hate to see RT eliminated completely, because riding is a skill and hard work that should be rewarded in some way. It can be boring, but what is more boring than letting a guy up and giving your opponent 1 pt -- which happens in most matches these days. One of the things I like about Ferrari is that he takes riding seriously! Like you say, good mat skills need to be rewarded in some way, beyond just being able to roll a guy over as in FS.

I'd keep the 3 periods and OT as they are, except I'd shorten the 1st OT (Sudden Victory) period to 30 seconds.

 

[Fryowa]

Freestyle 1,000,000,000%. I watch and follow it way more so than folk because folk has gotten so boring the past 15 years.

Folkstyle rewards passivity, freestyle penalizes it. You can call riding a skill and it is, but it’s a boring skill.

Stalling is the stupidest thing ever. 100% subjective, it’s not fixable by the refs because it’s literally a subjective, opinion call. Yes, literally. It’s in the rules that it’s a judgement call. It’s so subjective and opinion-based that they have to give a warning first. A warning that allows you to literally run away from your opponent at the end of a match because you know you can’t be penalized for it. If you’re ahead in points with 20 seconds left and don’t have a warning yet, you are free to turn your back and run away.

A push out and resulting score is not subjective, and it’s a reward for forcing your opponent out of bounds. You’re controlling your opponent.

Freestyle is so much more exciting.

Lastly, every single other wrestling organization in the entire world wrestles freestyle and it’s why the USA sucks in world and Olympic competition.

Folkstyle wrestling is the only sport that rewards and encourages preventing offensive action. I think that’s boring as hell.

Make the decision official that folkstyle will be retired in 6 years. That gives kids going into junior high the ability to finish out, and it gives 6 years for the little kids to start converting.

Folk sucks.

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

Freestyle 1,000,000,000%. I watch and follow it way more so than folk because folk has gotten so boring the past 15 years.

Folkstyle rewards passivity, freestyle penalizes it. You can call riding a skill and it is, but it’s a boring skill.

Stalling is the stupidest thing ever. 100% subjective, it’s not fixable by the refs because it’s literally a subjective, opinion call. Yes, literally. It’s in the rules that it’s a judgement call. It’s so subjective and opinion-based that they have to give a warning first. A warning that allows you to literally run away from your opponent at the end of a match because you know you can’t be penalized for it. If you’re ahead in points with 20 seconds left and don’t have a warning yet, you are free to turn your back and run away.

A push out and resulting score is not subjective, and it’s a reward for forcing your opponent out of bounds. You’re controlling your opponent.

Freestyle is so much more exciting.

Lastly, every single other wrestling organization in the entire world wrestles freestyle and it’s why the USA sucks in world and Olympic competition.

Folkstyle wrestling is the only sport that rewards and encourages preventing offensive action. I think that’s boring as hell.

Make the decision official that folkstyle will be retired in 6 years. That gives kids going into junior high the ability to finish out, and it gives 6 years for the little kids to start converting.

Folk sucks.

Mostly agree, but FS has its own limitations and subjectivity. I've seen numerous matches where a wrestler was placed on the passivity clock seemingly out of nowhere. International officials are notorious for controlling the outcome of matches.

The other issue I have with FS is there is little reward for mat skills, and Par terre reminds me of something kids would do during recess. Eliminate RT but allow some time to reward mat skills.

I could live with push-outs, but too sumo for me.

A hybrid version as above would be ideal but almost zero likelihood it will happen.

 

[Fryowa]

Mostly agree, but FS has its own limitations and subjectivity. I've seen numerous matches where a wrestler was placed on the passivity clock seemingly out of nowhere. International officials are notorious for controlling the outcome of matches.

The other issue I have with FS is there is little reward for mat skills, and Par terre reminds me of something kids would do during recess. Eliminate RT but allow some time to reward mat skills.

I could live with push-outs, but too sumo for me.

A hybrid version as above would be ideal but almost zero likelihood it will happen.

My thing on passivity and stalling is that in freestyle, passivity is aggressively called and WAY less of an issue. Almost non-existent because if you aren't taking shots you are getting nailed for it right away. No one in FS ever tries to flirt with it because you're going to get rung up and if you do, it's a match criteria breaker at the end. If you don't wrestle aggressively in a freestyle match you are going to lose, period. No ifs/ands/buts.

I love push outs because it forces guys to wrestle towards the center of the mat, and that = offense. In folk the rule encourages guys to get out of bounds when they're in trouble. Why should getting out of bounds in a bad position be rewarded with a reset? Why should you only (maybe) get a stall warning if you do that? Give me a reason why you should have a get out of jail card once a match if you say, get your ankle picked and you're about to get taken down, but you jump out of bounds and take the other guy with you? Eliminate the stall warning maybe? Welp, if you do that why not just give a push-out? Same/same.

Riding time same thing. It allows playing games with points. A lot of times you'll see a guy up by one point with riding time locked up fleeing the mat the whole 3rd period because he knows he can get two stall calls (warning and penalty) and still win.

Push-outs don't lead to sumo wrestling because once you start shoving a guy out you're just as likely to get tossed on your head judo style. That's what I love about FS, get your momentum going in the wrong direction and all of a sudden it's a 4 point throw.

Changing the rules isn't going to do anything because at the end of the day folkstyle stalling is totally subjective and there's no way make it objective. Freestyle fixes it by simply saying, if you aren't moving forward and can't get a TD, you're getting put on a clock. "moving forward" and takedown shots aren't ambiguous. Don't score a TD in that amount of time you're getting nailed. Guys have no choice but to wrestle offensively.

Folkstyle it's just, "welp, when the ref decides you're not aggressive enough to his individual taste you get a warning. Just keep that warning in your back pocket till the end of the match and run around like a monkey with a grin on your face and you'll be alright." There's no rule that says what is and what isn't stalling. They describe it, but it's still left up to the ref's opinion.

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

My thing on passivity and stalling is that in freestyle, passivity is aggressively called and WAY less of an issue. Almost non-existent because if you aren't taking shots you are getting nailed for it right away. No one in FS ever tries to flirt with it because you're going to get rung up and if you do, it's a match criteria breaker at the end. If you don't wrestle aggressively in a freestyle match you are going to lose, period. No ifs/ands/buts.

I love push outs because it forces guys to wrestle towards the center of the mat, and that = offense. In folk the rule encourages guys to get out of bounds when they're in trouble. Why should getting out of bounds in a bad position be rewarded with a reset? Why should you only (maybe) get a stall warning if you do that? Give me a reason why you should have a get out of jail card once a match if you say, get your ankle picked and you're about to get taken down, but you jump out of bounds and take the other guy with you? Eliminate the stall warning maybe? Welp, if you do that why not just give a push-out? Same/same.

Riding time same thing. It allows playing games with points. A lot of times you'll see a guy up by one point with riding time locked up fleeing the mat the whole 3rd period because he knows he can get two stall calls (warning and penalty) and still win.

Push-outs don't lead to sumo wrestling because once you start shoving a guy out you're just as likely to get tossed on your head judo style. That's what I love about FS, get your momentum going in the wrong direction and all of a sudden it's a 4 point throw.

Changing the rules isn't going to do anything because at the end of the day folkstyle stalling is totally subjective and there's no way make it objective. Freestyle fixes it by simply saying, if you aren't moving forward and can't get a TD, you're getting put on a clock. "moving forward" and takedown shots aren't ambiguous. Don't score a TD in that amount of time you're getting nailed. Guys have no choice but to wrestle offensively.

Folkstyle it's just, "welp, when the ref decides you're not aggressive enough to his individual taste you get a warning. Just keep that warning in your back pocket till the end of the match and run around like a monkey with a grin on your face and you'll be alright." There's no rule that says what is and what isn't stalling. They describe it, but it's still left up to the ref's opinion.

I agree with most of what you're saying, especially RT and being able to tactically utilize out-of-bounds to your favor.

I could live with push-outs but just personally not a big fan. Perhaps make out-of-bounds a true out-of-bounds. Not necessarily rewarding a wrestler for pushing you out, but you have to be cognizant at all times to avoid the perimeter. Just a thought.

As far as passivity, I've seen wrestlers take a shot then literally 15 seconds later be placed on the clock. There absolutely is a subjective component to that.

My biggest issue with FS is the quick stand-ups. I'd like to see mat skills get rewarded to a higher degree. Not going to happen, but it is what it is.

Nevertheless, if I had to choose between the two as-is, I definitely would support a change to FS.

 

[Fryowa]

I agree with most of what you're saying, especially RT and being able to tactically utilize out-of-bounds to your favor.

I could live with push-outs but just personally not a big fan. Perhaps make out-of-bounds a true out-of-bounds. Not necessarily rewarding a wrestler for pushing you out, but you have to be cognizant at all times to avoid the perimeter. Just a thought.

As far as passivity, I've seen wrestlers take a shot then literally 15 seconds later be placed on the clock. There absolutely is a subjective component to that.

My biggest issue with FS is the quick stand-ups. I'd like to see mat skills get rewarded to a higher degree. Not going to happen, but it is what it is.

Nevertheless, if I had to choose between the two as-is, I definitely would support a change to FS.

If you wanna keep folk...

1) Eliminate riding time points.

2) Limit rides to 20 seconds unless the down wrestler is in near fall or fall danger, then stand up neutral. Still allows ground control that people want but you need a takedown to get it. It's also not a burden because they already have riding time clocks. Once the clock starts a distinct buzzer sounds and the clock stops for resetting to neutral.

3) 1 pt push out. You don't wanna get scored on, fight for the center of the mat.

4) All periods begin neutral.

5) Add a shot clock in 2nd/3rd period, 2nd time on the clock is 2 pt penalty, 3rd time DQ. No warning, using FS rules. Does it still require interpretation? Yep. Is it severe enough of a penalty that Iowa wrestlers **cough** will start wrestling offensively again? Yep. Are FS rules much less ambiguous? Yep.

Honestly points 1-4 above would be enough. But I still want 5 because stalling has made folk completely unwatchable

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

If you wanna keep folk...

1) Eliminate riding time points.

2) Limit rides to 20 seconds unless the down wrestler is in near fall or fall danger, then stand up neutral. Still allows ground control that people want but you need a takedown to get it. It's also not a burden because they already have riding time clocks. Once the clock starts a distinct buzzer sounds and the clock stops for resetting to neutral.

3) 1 pt push out. You don't wanna get scored on, fight for the center of the mat.

4) All periods begin neutral.

5) Add a shot clock in 2nd/3rd period, 2nd time on the clock is 2 pt penalty, 3rd time DQ. No warning, using FS rules. Does it still require interpretation? Yep. Is it severe enough of a penalty that Iowa wrestlers **cough** will start wrestling offensively again? Yep. Are FS rules much less ambiguous? Yep.

Honestly points 1-4 above would be enough. But I still want 5 because stalling has made folk completely unwatchable

I like the "All periods begin neutral." Hadn't thought about that.

Only thing I personally would push for is longer mat time. I'd prefer around 40 seconds. If no turn/exposure in that timeframe, stand them up.

 

[Fryowa]

I like the "All periods begin neutral." Hadn't thought about that.

Only thing I personally would push for is longer mat time. I'd prefer around 40 seconds. If no turn/exposure in that timeframe, stand them up.

The problem with longer mat time is the 2nd and 3rd periods are only 2 minutes. 40 seconds is a third of a period.

Also right now there's no incentive to turn a guy. Folk rewards riding, FS rewards back exposure which means in order to score you have to turn your opponent. If you went 20 seconds in folk it gives time for an escape, and also forces you right away to either get a half in and start tilting or you get stood up.

 

[Fryowa]

I like the "All periods begin neutral." Hadn't thought about that.

Only thing I personally would push for is longer mat time. I'd prefer around 40 seconds. If no turn/exposure in that timeframe, stand them up.

I also think that the vast majority of the pushback on going FS is from people who've never watched it closely and have no clue what the rules are. I have coworkers who legit think Olympic wrestling is the same thing as what we see in college, and every 4 years they come to me asking why such and such happened, and why was that a score, and why was that not a score, and why was that takedown 4 points...

I really think if fans could commit themselves to learning freestyle they'd see it's a much better product and way more exciting. And I really think if they did that, the USA would be unstoppable in the Olympics.

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

Yeah, choosing between the two, freestyle obviously is the better choice for several reasons, not the least of which is getting on the same page as the rest of the world.

The other thing I would add is a third period (or, at the very least, make the two periods 3 minutes), and get rid of immediate criteria in favor of a SD period, THEN criteria if no winner.

 

[Fryowa]

Double also, women's college wrestling is all freestyle...men can do it too.

Literally no one that I know, knows that women's college wrestling is freestyle.