Innocent until proven guilty

Glass1/2fullguy

Well-Known Member
In many cases this phrase and process frustrates me. So many times there is no “innocent until proven guilty” needed. If it’s clear without a reasonable doubt that an individual committed the crime then let’s skip the trial, skip wasting tax payers dollars, and just jump right to the sentencing. I get it’s WAY more complicated but frustrating to watch guilty humans get “due process”. If you’ve followed the Idaho quadruple murder, and read the affidavit, this is an open and shut case. We should save the tax payers dollars and jump straight to sentencing for this human without a soul.
 

Fryowa

Administrator
In many cases this phrase and process frustrates me. So many times there is no “innocent until proven guilty” needed. If it’s clear without a reasonable doubt that an individual committed the crime then let’s skip the trial, skip wasting tax payers dollars, and just jump right to the sentencing. I get it’s WAY more complicated but frustrating to watch guilty humans get “due process”. If you’ve followed the Idaho quadruple murder, and read the affidavit, this is an open and shut case. We should save the tax payers dollars and jump straight to sentencing for this human without a soul.
A LOT of people who seemed open and shut guilty over the years have been exonerated, and beyond that, who gets to decide if a case is open and shut?

Our legal system is far from perfect. It’s thousands of miles from perfect. But it’s the best one in the world (civil and criminal) when taken as a whole compared to countries of 50+ millions of people.

Due process is one of the cornerstones of our republic, my friend. Only a communist or traitor would want to do away with it. You’re free to be a communist or traitor if you want, btw.
 

Glass1/2fullguy

Well-Known Member
A LOT of people who seemed open and shut guilty over the years have been exonerated, and beyond that, who gets to decide if a case is open and shut?

Our legal system is far from perfect. It’s thousands of miles from perfect. But it’s the best one in the world (civil and criminal) when taken as a whole compared to countries of 50+ millions of people.

Due process is one of the cornerstones of our republic, my friend. Only a communist or traitor would want to do away with it. You’re free to be a communist or traitor if you want, btw.
Open and shut cases are obvious and if they’re not obvious then due process is required. If there’s any question then obviously due process is needed. The case of this Idaho murderer is not the best example. I read through the affidavit and it’s clear to me he committed the crime however I suppose some illiterate person may not be able to come to the same conclusion. Because of this it can’t be considered an open & shut case. The uvalde school shooter is a clear example of an open & shut case. Technology & dna evidence has changed the game and I assume dna evidence would be the main reason why most those who have been exonerated were exonerated. But like I said, “I get it’s WAY more complicated than that”, meaning there’s a reason we have the system we have cause it works most of the time. At the end of the day this Idaho murderer will be found guilty and will either be executed or spend the rest of his life in prison. Also note I never stated I wanted to “do away w/ it”. I simply said it can be very frustrating at times watching the process when a criminal is clearly guilty.
 

HawkGold

Well-Known Member
Open and shut cases are obvious and if they’re not obvious then due process is required. If there’s any question then obviously due process is needed. The case of this Idaho murderer is not the best example. I read through the affidavit and it’s clear to me he committed the crime however I suppose some illiterate person may not be able to come to the same conclusion. Because of this it can’t be considered an open & shut case. The uvalde school shooter is a clear example of an open & shut case. Technology & dna evidence has changed the game and I assume dna evidence would be the main reason why most those who have been exonerated were exonerated. But like I said, “I get it’s WAY more complicated than that”, meaning there’s a reason we have the system we have cause it works most of the time. At the end of the day this Idaho murderer will be found guilty and will either be executed or spend the rest of his life in prison. Also note I never stated I wanted to “do away w/ it”. I simply said it can be very frustrating at times watching the process when a criminal is clearly guilty.
There are several angles

1. People, especially the vulnerable can be coerced into confessions.
2. Strong people can make false statements after long and intensive interrogation.
3. It is necessary to determine a persons mental capacity to admit guilt or to even get right from wrong. Studies out of Canada and Washington indicate up to 80 percent of incarcerated people have fetal alcohol brain damage.
4. Sentencing is grossly unfair.
5. DNA can also be less than 100 percent reliable
6. Did you ever get into trouble with mom/dad and mercy was the better choice than the hammer?
 

Fryowa

Administrator
Open and shut cases are obvious and if they’re not obvious then due process is required. If there’s any question then obviously due process is needed. The case of this Idaho murderer is not the best example. I read through the affidavit and it’s clear to me he committed the crime however I suppose some illiterate person may not be able to come to the same conclusion. Because of this it can’t be considered an open & shut case. The uvalde school shooter is a clear example of an open & shut case. Technology & dna evidence has changed the game and I assume dna evidence would be the main reason why most those who have been exonerated were exonerated. But like I said, “I get it’s WAY more complicated than that”, meaning there’s a reason we have the system we have cause it works most of the time. At the end of the day this Idaho murderer will be found guilty and will either be executed or spend the rest of his life in prison. Also note I never stated I wanted to “do away w/ it”. I simply said it can be very frustrating at times watching the process when a criminal is clearly guilty.
“Obvious” according to who?

Who gets to decide when something is obvious? What’s the definition of “obvious?” What’s obvious to you and ten other people has 11 different interpretations. Hell, I bet you couldn’t get ten people to agree on the definition of obvious, let alone whether something is obvious or not.

Who is anyone to decide one person gets a trial and another doesn’t? You want a system like most Arab countries have where there’s just a judge deciding you’re guilty and off to hang you go? Because the judges of those two guys who got executed for protesting the death of that girl who didn’t wear her hijab—those judges thought it was “obvious” they were guilty.

Can’t have it both ways, man. The whole reason we have a justice system instead of just judges is because the United States’ founders wanted to get away from being at the whim of kings, bishops, and judges deciding everyones’ fates.

Maybe you just have a lack of understanding the construct of our country‘s system and the reasons for it, but I’m struggling to comprehend an American person thinking something so fundamental to our society as due process should go away. You don’t just get to apply due process to some people and not others because of someone’s opinion. Wow.
 

okeefe4prez

Well-Known Member
In many cases this phrase and process frustrates me. So many times there is no “innocent until proven guilty” needed. If it’s clear without a reasonable doubt that an individual committed the crime then let’s skip the trial, skip wasting tax payers dollars, and just jump right to the sentencing. I get it’s WAY more complicated but frustrating to watch guilty humans get “due process”. If you’ve followed the Idaho quadruple murder, and read the affidavit, this is an open and shut case. We should save the tax payers dollars and jump straight to sentencing for this human without a soul.

F you. The government has the burden to prove every single element of a crime if they plan to deprive someone of their life or liberty. Every. Single. Element.

There is a system in place where there is overwhelming evidence. It is a system whereby someone can take a plea deal and get a lesser sentence. But that system is horrible because someone who is innocent can face 2 years if they "just take the deal" but would get 20 if they got convicted and God only knows how many people have been wrongfully locked up under those deals. We need more trials in the country, not fewer. The government shouldn't punish someone for taking advantage of a constitutionally protected right, but here we are.
 

Hawkfnntn

Well-Known Member
F you. The government has the burden to prove every single element of a crime if they plan to deprive someone of their life or liberty. Every. Single. Element.

There is a system in place where there is overwhelming evidence. It is a system whereby someone can take a plea deal and get a lesser sentence. But that system is horrible because someone who is innocent can face 2 years if they "just take the deal" but would get 20 if they got convicted and God only knows how many people have been wrongfully locked up under those deals. We need more trials in the country, not fewer. The government shouldn't punish someone for taking advantage of a constitutionally protected right, but here we are.
Truer words have never been spoken...
 

Glass1/2fullguy

Well-Known Member
Ok, i get it. My overall point was really simply a frustration in the VERY few instances where there is no doubt of guilt...........and really was just thinking of murders honestly and did an extremely poor job of articulating what i was thinking/feeling after reading the affidavit from the idaho murders.
 

Fryowa

Administrator
Ok, i get it. My overall point was really simply a frustration in the VERY few instances where there is no doubt of guilt...........and really was just thinking of murders honestly and did an extremely poor job of articulating what i was thinking/feeling after reading the affidavit from the idaho murders.
You talk about taxpayer money being the driver behind your frustration...

RAND put out a study in 2016 that the average murder trial during the period of time they looked at cost between $22K and $44K.

Let's for argument's sake say the Idaho murder trial, because it's a death penalty case we're looking at $2 million total cost.

Bush II spent $125M on vacation costs during his presidency
Obama spent $106M on vacation costs during his presidency
Trump spent $158M on vacation costs during his presidency which is over double the two guys before him.

$389M of taxpayer money spent by three presidents on vacation travel and related costs.

If you want to complain about wasted taxpayer dollars there are thousands of other categories to explore before you go talking about depriving people of their constitutional rights. I'd rather pay $10 million making sure the courts got a murder case correct than $1,000 on a presidential trip to Martha's Vineyard.

Also unless someone confesses and there is obvious video evidence of a crime occurring, there's no such thing as "no doubt of guilt." The very definition of "guilt" in the American legal sense is having 12 of your citizen peers decide that you did something wrong after they were presented both sides of a story, from capable representation.
 

okeefe4prez

Well-Known Member
Ok, i get it. My overall point was really simply a frustration in the VERY few instances where there is no doubt of guilt...........and really was just thinking of murders honestly and did an extremely poor job of articulating what i was thinking/feeling after reading the affidavit from the idaho murders.

Hell, if anything the safeguards need to be even stronger now. If you have a roommate who is a weird dude and he has depression or a drug problem or some condition that makes him sleep 10 hours a day you could just take his phone and his car and cruise around and frame the guy. With all this technology around there is now a possibility to "spoof" someone's location while they are at home alone. Even planting DNA isn't that hard, just get the guy to touch some things and get some hair.

While the methods of catching people have improved dramatically so have the methods of framing someone. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but these digital dragnets create significant risk for otherwise totally innocent people.
 

99topdawg

Well-Known Member
Take the case of Russ Faria, whose wife Betsy was killed in the home. Open and shut case. Period.

She had 55 stab wounds--a crime of passion
The door was unlocked and no signs of forced entry
She was in late stages of breast cancer

He was on camera at different stores to get receipts to set up an alibi
He had blood on his shoes
He had abused her
He had a terrible, violent temper
He had put a pillow over her face on multiple occasions, telling her that's what it would feel like to die
He threatened to kill her
He told people he wanted her dead
He had a mistress
She was going to divorce him and change the life insurance policy to her best friend to set up a trust for her kids (they're not his kids)
Friends that helped him set up an alibi as part of their gamer group to see if they could get away with murder

Guilty as charged. Never a doubt.





Not so fast my friends...

The problem is, only the top 3 things were actually true.

He was on camera at different stores to get receipts to set up an alibi He was at stores, but buying snacks and drinks for game night 45 minutes from home. No possible way he was able to kill her, based on the time she was last seen alive and the estimated time of death.

He did have blood on his shoes, which were in his closet The blood was smeared and not spattered. It was on the top of his shoes, with no trace on the bottom (remember, 55 stab wounds). No blood on his clothes or body, which was argued that he did it naked, except for the shoes.

The evidence below was all spread as rumors by her best friend, the real killer, to frame him and get away with it. People believed her and spread it and the rumors became "truths".

He had abused her
He had put a pillow over her face on multiple occasions, telling her that's what it would feel like to die
He threatened to kill her
He told people he wanted her dead
He had a mistress
She was going to divorce him and change the life insurance policy to her best friend to set up a trust for her kids (they're not his kids) 4 days before the murder, the policy was changed to give the money to the best friend and trusts were never set up.
Friends that helped him set up an alibi as part of their gamer group to see if they could get away with murder

After 3 years, the conviction was overturned and as not retried. The best friend took an Alford Plea 4 years after Russ's conviction was overturned, after she murdered a different person and was suspected of killing her mother to get $500,000 in life insurance money.
 

HawkGold

Well-Known Member
This thread got me thinking about a case in Iowa City and if after many years it had been solved with DNA evidence. One of my grade school teachers was Jane Wakefield. She disappeared and was never found. She was a small lady 27 years old. She wasn't a great teacher on ability, but she really cared for her students. She was one of the few adults in my life that seemed to understand what I was experiencing (I posted on another thread about my past). As far as I know, she didn't do anything about it, but she did seem to know and care. She took a few of us (who when I think back had rough family life) to a science camp at Guthrie Center which seemed like a million miles away.

But no, there has been no change in the case though the authorities think they might have some remains. but was never positively ID'd. Her case has been on cold case shows over the years. She drove an old little fiat and lived in a trailer in IC.

In trying to find info on Mrs Wakefield, I noticed there was a delayed arrest and conviction on a cold case that terrified about everyone young in eastern Iowa with Michelle Marinka. The guy now in prison almost 40 years after the conviction on DNA has never admitted to the murder. About that time, there was a double murder in Mt Pleasant of a mom and her teen daughter. There was a conviction that was overturned due to how the weapon was obtained. He was later convicted decades later.
 

MelroseHawkins

Well-Known Member
This thread got me thinking about a case in Iowa City and if after many years it had been solved with DNA evidence. One of my grade school teachers was Jane Wakefield. She disappeared and was never found. She was a small lady 27 years old. She wasn't a great teacher on ability, but she really cared for her students. She was one of the few adults in my life that seemed to understand what I was experiencing (I posted on another thread about my past). As far as I know, she didn't do anything about it, but she did seem to know and care. She took a few of us (who when I think back had rough family life) to a science camp at Guthrie Center which seemed like a million miles away.

But no, there has been no change in the case though the authorities think they might have some remains. but was never positively ID'd. Her case has been on cold case shows over the years. She drove an old little fiat and lived in a trailer in IC.

In trying to find info on Mrs Wakefield, I noticed there was a delayed arrest and conviction on a cold case that terrified about everyone young in eastern Iowa with Michelle Marinka. The guy now in prison almost 40 years after the conviction on DNA has never admitted to the murder. About that time, there was a double murder in Mt Pleasant of a mom and her teen daughter. There was a conviction that was overturned due to how the weapon was obtained. He was later convicted decades later.
Yea, I read that story in the past in Iowa Cold Case files which is a very interesting site. There are a lot of murders and missing people over all the years. Really F'ed up cases.
 

HawkGold

Well-Known Member
Yea, I read that story in the past in Iowa Cold Case files which is a very interesting site. There are a lot of murders and missing people over all the years. Really F'ed up cases.
Freaky when it is your favorite teacher.. She spanked a classmate who was giving her a rough time and he laughed at her and she cried.

Later the classmate tried to shove me down a flight of stairs and I managed to grab him and we fought while crashing down the stairs. His arm broke badly and while he was writhing in pain she thanked me. He was hoodlum and she wasn't mean but it was surprising.

She was so little and naive.
 
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MelroseHawkins

Well-Known Member
Freaky when it is your favorite teacher.. She spanked a classmate who was giving her a rough time and he laughed at her and she cried.

Later the classmate tried to shove me down a flight of stairs and I managed to grab him and we fought while crashing down the stairs. His arm broke badly and while he was writhing in pain she thanked me. He was hoodlum and she wasn't mean but it was surprising.

She was so little and naive.

Yea, she was tiny. So, you prob didn't go to Penn ES which is where she started a month before she went missing. I presume she was at another IC school prior to Penn.
 

HawkGold

Well-Known Member
Yea, she was tiny. So, you prob didn't go to Penn ES which is where she started a month before she went missing. I presume she was at another IC school prior to Penn.
Rural. We were surprised she left. Her husband oft drove the red fiat to pick her up. He was a suspect as they were divorcing.
 

MelroseHawkins

Well-Known Member
Rural. We were surprised she left. Her husband oft drove the red fiat to pick her up. He was a suspect as they were divorcing.

He supposedly thought it out. It was reported he rented a car from the CR airport that was the same make/model/color as the new guy she was seeing. He went to her mobile home in Bon Aire park and either killed her there or abducted her. It is reported he took her back to his apartment complex and burned her in the incinerator, then went out to I-80 Iowa City area and spread her ashes in the ditch. It's all F'd up.

He was/is the top suspect but I don't think they every tied any evidence to him to make it stick.
 

HawkGold

Well-Known Member
He supposedly thought it out. It was reported he rented a car from the CR airport that was the same make/model/color as the new guy she was seeing. He went to her mobile home in Bon Aire park and either killed her there or abducted her. It is reported he took her back to his apartment complex and burned her in the incinerator, then went out to I-80 Iowa City area and spread her ashes in the ditch. It's all F'd up.

He was/is the top suspect but I don't think they every tied any evidence to him to make it stick.
As a kid I watched it all play out on KCRG. I met the husband as he'd pick her up a lot. Seemed aloof/indifferent. A wilder lifestyle than she exhibited at school. Nothing that seemed capable of such a thing. I think she said they only had the one car. Thought he must be dedicated to drive that far and pick her up. Maybe he was just controlling. He never came to her class events and never engaged any of us. I saw them both not long before she announced she was leaving. I think she got the new job really late. She was like a big sister to some of us. She deserved a better ending.
 
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