Howe: Hawkeyes Should Be Allowed to Peacefully Protest During Anthem

Status
Not open for further replies.

kicker22

Well-Known Member
Yeah. Probably more generalities than I would have liked on my part. My only excuse is that the topic is broad and complex, probably not a discussion I should have brought toHN.

There are certainly good reasons for parents selecting private schools. I have no problem with that at all. My School Board and I invited local parochial school students to participate in co-curricular programs. Our actions were not uncommon across the state.

You are also correct about some privates waiving part of tuition costs for needy families.

As to students with disabilities, you are correct. Public’s have more resources than most privates. I have had some examples of parents not wanting their youngsters around “those kids”. Again, generalized. I do get annoyed when achievement “contests” are held by public school critics while privates are allowed to select their students. The fact is that nearly all of those arguments fall flat, since comparisons show no significant differences.

I can give you a list of the things I am very disappointed about in the public system. So, I know where the bodies are buried. At the same time, getting called by others an elitist, racist, defender of a failed school system, after 40 years of commitment to young people, I have a responsibility to correct some misconceptions. And yes, I was deeply offended.

I really do appreciate your comments. Thank you.

No thank you needed. I frequent this site because I value everyone's opinion and always appreciate a different perspective that you're guaranteed to find here. If I wanted one side arguments I'd stay home where she's always right and the only opinion that really matters is the one that keeps her happy. I love this place.
 

HuckFinn

Well-Known Member
Regarding your comment about the taxpayer having to pay for vouchers, if you eliminate the voucher and the parents can't afford to send their kid to a private school, where will the kid go to school? A public school that's where. Who pays for the public school? The taxpayer does. So what's the difference?

I understand your point. The problem is that vouchers are offered as a tax incentive to parents and the tax break signals a tax reduction in public school aid. Our WI legislature has continually used this method to favor private schools. That is where I draw the line.
 

Ree4

Well-Known Member
I like some of your ideas but I think the first amendment and constitution is bigger than standing during the anthem or conversely not kneeling.

The irony and dichotomy of thought and logic over these ideas is immense as I am almost 100% sure that a large bunch of people who were pissed at Colin Kaepernick and other kneelers for kneeling thought they should not kneel but those same mostly white people say they have an absolute right to own semi-automatic weapons with large clips.

Actually there have been assault weapons bans so I guess if some people want to try to pass a law to ban kneeling during the anthem it would be interesting to watch the legal actions taken.
I don't know if the NKA (National Kneeling Association) is as well funded as the NRA
 

HawkeyeBK

Well-Known Member
re: kneeling or standing.
Instead of putting it all on the players/coaches to decide, just stop playing the National Anthem before games. I do believe that college and pro sports risk losing a lot of fans/viewers if every game turns into a protest, lecture, etc. For most fans sports are an escape from normal everyday life, and, there are other options.
 

kicker22

Well-Known Member
re: kneeling or standing.
Instead of putting it all on the players/coaches to decide, just stop playing the National Anthem before games. I do believe that college and pro sports risk losing a lot of fans/viewers if every game turns into a protest, lecture, etc. For most fans sports are an escape from normal everyday life, and, there are other options.

I'm probably in the minority, but I've always taken issue with the national anthem before games as a coach and player. As a player you stretch and warm up to get ready to play and then spend roughly 10+ minutes cooling off while swaying back and fourth ready to get things started as the anthem is played and the lineups are announced.
I'm not saying that I don't think it has a place or that I'm disrespecting it in any way, but I don't play it every morning when I get to work and am ready to sit down in my desk or in 90% of any other day to day activities so I'm not sure it really has a place at sporting events. Maybe a championship, but a regular game or activity, I'm just not sure its necessary.
 

Ree4

Well-Known Member
It is the old adage of "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me",
I thought this was the quote ;) "
“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”
 

Hawknigh

Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I'm pissed. And that's going to come out with my frustration. I won't apologize for that.


@RobHowe I wasn't being sarcastic, though I could understand why you might think I was.

I was giving honest praise for the project being a non-inflammatory, constructive response to the reality of white privilege. I hear lots of complaining, but this project is doing something that really makes a difference. It doesn't pretend that it doesn't exist. And it doesn't just try to wish it away. Rather it does something substantial that is likely to make a lasting difference. That's what I meant!
 

SpiderRico

Well-Known Member
Is he saying that KF gets it but Doyle doesn't?

No, I don't think so. I took it as him saying that any culture change that will happen in the Iowa Football Organization will start with Doyle because he has by far the most direct interaction with all of the athletes. KF's interaction is fairly minimal.
 

CP87

Well-Known Member
No, I don't think so. I took it as him saying that any culture change that will happen in the Iowa Football Organization will start with Doyle because he has by far the most direct interaction with all of the athletes. KF's interaction is fairly minimal.

That doesn't seem to be the case, based upon follow-up tweets by several former players. They seem to be implying that Doyle threw racial stereotypes in the faces of some black players.

Now if you listen to any of the washed-up walkons podcasts, you get the sense that Doyle needled all players, often picking personal topics that he knew would get under their skin. But this seems like the sort of thing that is going to turn into a huge deal, and rightfully so if his behavior led to half the team feeling marginalized. If you thought kneeling had the potential to be divisive, if former players start lining up for and against Coach Doyle (because he is clearly revered by many), things could get REALLY ugly.
 

Ree4

Well-Known Member
Yeah. Probably more generalities than I would have liked on my part. My only excuse is that the topic is broad and complex, probably not a discussion I should have brought toHN.

There are certainly good reasons for parents selecting private schools. I have no problem with that at all. My School Board and I invited local parochial school students to participate in co-curricular programs. Our actions were not uncommon across the state.

You are also correct about some privates waiving part of tuition costs for needy families.

As to students with disabilities, you are correct. Public’s have more resources than most privates. I have had some examples of parents not wanting their youngsters around “those kids”. Again, generalized. I do get annoyed when achievement “contests” are held by public school critics while privates are allowed to select their students. The fact is that nearly all of those arguments fall flat, since comparisons show no significant differences.

I can give you a list of the things I am very disappointed about in the public system. So, I know where the bodies are buried. At the same time, getting called by others an elitist, racist, defender of a failed school system, after 40 years of commitment to young people, I have a responsibility to correct some misconceptions. And yes, I was deeply offended.

I really do appreciate your comments. Thank you.
There are many out there who realize that being a good teacher or educator is one of the most important positions our society offers and it is often thankless. After a semester I would always try to personally thank every good instructor that I had.

Thank you for your contribution to making this world a better place.
 

Ree4

Well-Known Member
That doesn't seem to be the case, based upon follow-up tweets by several former players. They seem to be implying that Doyle threw racial stereotypes in the faces of some black players.

Now if you listen to any of the washed-up walkons podcasts, you get the sense that Doyle needled all players, often picking personal topics that he knew would get under their skin. But this seems like the sort of thing that is going to turn into a huge deal, and rightfully so if his behavior led to half the team feeling marginalized. If you thought kneeling had the potential to be divisive, if former players start lining up for and against Coach Doyle (because he is clearly revered by many), things could get REALLY ugly.
That's what I was thinking too. Can only hope that it isn't what they were suggesting.
 

kicker22

Well-Known Member
That doesn't seem to be the case, based upon follow-up tweets by several former players. They seem to be implying that Doyle threw racial stereotypes in the faces of some black players.

Now if you listen to any of the washed-up walkons podcasts, you get the sense that Doyle needled all players, often picking personal topics that he knew would get under their skin. But this seems like the sort of thing that is going to turn into a huge deal, and rightfully so if his behavior led to half the team feeling marginalized. If you thought kneeling had the potential to be divisive, if former players start lining up for and against Coach Doyle (because he is clearly revered by many), things could get REALLY ugly.

Things should get ugly. No coach regardless of what they are trying to accomplish should ever cross the line and say the things he's been accused of saying. No coach regardless of where it's coming from should ever put themselves in a position where they feel its ever ok to ask a player "if they gangbang in the off season". It's a line you simply don't cross and one of the basic foundations in introductory coaching classes (not to mention common sense) in terms of how a coach should behave. There's just no place for it in the profession.
 

CP87

Well-Known Member
Things should get ugly. No coach regardless of what they are trying to accomplish should ever cross the line and say the things he's been accused of saying. No coach regardless of where it's coming from should ever put themselves in a position where they feel its ever ok to ask a player "if they gangbang in the off season". It's a line you simply don't cross and one of the basic foundations in introductory coaching classes (not to mention common sense) in terms of how a coach should behave. There's just no place for it in the profession.

One could make the argument he is trying to push their buttons, get them mad, hoping to harness that emotion.

One could argue it is no different from making fun of the player with a slightly too high body fat % for being a fat slob, or a short guy for being short, or a farm kid for being a hayseed. He probably did all of those things at one time or another as well.

But here is where the white privilege likely sneaks in. It is probably easier for the white players to let that roll of their backs, they are not inundated with those stereotypes all the time. Also, the black players are probably already feeling a bit like outcasts on a predominantly white campus in a predominantly white state. They are probably hoping that the complex can be the one place where they are just considered one of "us" intsead of one of "them". So those comments coming from that source are probably especially discouraging.

It would be really nice to hear from a panel of former players, and have them discuss these issues in a long-form format.
 

kicker22

Well-Known Member
One could make the argument he is trying to push their buttons, get them mad, hoping to harness that emotion.

One could argue it is no different from making fun of the player with a slightly too high body fat % for being a fat slob, or a short guy for being short, or a farm kid for being a hayseed. He probably did all of those things at one time or another as well.

But here is where the white privilege likely sneaks in. It is probably easier for the white players to let that roll of their backs, they are not inundated with those stereotypes all the time. Also, the black players are probably already feeling a bit like outcasts on a predominantly white campus in a predominantly white state. They are probably hoping that the complex can be the one place where they are just considered one of "us" intsead of one of "them". So those comments coming from that source are probably especially discouraging.

It would be really nice to hear from a panel of former players, and have them discuss these issues in a long-form format.

Good points and I think you're right about doing it to motivate and harness the emotion. But he's coaching such a diverse group of young men, that you can almost guarantee that some of those players who grew up in urban areas have either been directly affected or have had friends/family affected by gang activity. You simply don't go down that path (1) because there's absolutely no reason too, and (2) you could very easily hit on a subject too close to home to some people.
 

CP87

Well-Known Member
Good points and I think you're right about doing it to motivate and harness the emotion. But he's coaching such a diverse group of young men, that you can almost guarantee that some of those players who grew up in urban areas have either been directly affected or have had friends/family affected by gang activity. You simply don't go down that path (1) because there's absolutely no reason too, and (2) you could very easily hit on a subject too close to home to some people.

Does not seem like the sort of allegations he will survive. I am all for trying to help people grow, as opposed to condemning and villifying. For example, I think Drew Brees deserves the opportunity to grow from the situation he created; if we just deem him an irredeemable villain and move on, we will only create wider divides than we already have. Let's listen to one another as humans, and try to learn and understand.

Back to Doyle's alleged transgressions: there are certain professional missteps that are worthy of losing your job over. If he used such tactics frequently with black players, regardless of the intent in his heart, that was a pretty serious professional error, and that is worth terminating over. But losing your job should not mean you are branded for life; we should all be given opportunities to grow and become better versions of ourselves. If that is denied, how will we ever come closer as a country?
 

Motigerhawk

Well-Known Member
I wish RobHowe would share the rest of the tweets some of these guys are posting. The Faith one earlier about him coming to Iowa because of KF and then says Doyle should listen or whatever it was.

What is the context? Is Doyle calling these guys names? Is Doyle in the same boat as KF? I dont get the comments or perspective.

Could someone enlighten me?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top