Facing more 3-man fronts in 2010

H

homerHAWKeye777

Well-Known Member
We all know that Michigan is installing a 3-3-5, however, what is perhaps a little less well known is that BOTH Michigan State and Indiana seem intent upon installing a 3-4 for the 2010 season.

Here are some impressions:

- Indiana has promising but still young DTs (both SOs in 2010 IIRC). Furthermore, they'd be featuring new DEs if they were to use a 4-3. Thus, depth on the DL might certainly be a driving force for the change.

- What is particularly puzzling about Indiana's move is that the graduated something like three of their top 4 LBs. Replogle is definitely a quality player ... and they probably have some other decent players there ... however, they are seriously going to be lacking experience at LB. And then to require 3 MORE new starters at LB? Hmmmm ....

- With Michigan State, the transition makes perfect sense. They have Worthy who is a young guy and a complete stud. He's a guy who's completely capable of being a prototypical stud 3-4 DT. Furthermore, they're strong at LB ... very strong even. And, their most notable weakness is on the DL ... apart from Worthy. My bet is that if they stick to a 3-4, then it's definitely a sign that Dantonio isn't going to allow Oren Wilson (their starting NT in '09) back on the team ... even though he's voiced a desire to stay.

- Michigan's decision makes little sense given their lack of experienced depth in the secondary. It simply tells me that RichRod is simply reaching for a blankie ... after all, his WVU squads used a 3-3-5 and had success. The question is ... will they be able to pull off the transition? Will their D be better in 2010 despite losing their only really impressive players?

Also, what will be the implication to our beloved Hawks?

- My impression is that Michigan and Indiana will likely have trouble stopping the run against Iowa in 2010. Relying upon a 3-man front simply gives Iowa's power running game a numbers advantage. It simply doesn't strike me that Michigan nor Indiana have the current personnel to pull off the 3-4 in the short term.

- My impression is that Michigan State will likely be able to have success using the 3-4 ... and that is largely due to the personnel that they have. I'm not all that certain that it will give them all that much of an advantage though. I can only suppose that they realize that they don't have the guys on the DL to get the pressure on the QB ... so they may as well use a formation where the can bring pressure from more different places. Thus, as a result, it possibly might help them a little bit in coverage ... an area where they had significant issues in '09.
 
homerHAWKeye777 said:
With Michigan State, the transition makes perfect sense. They have Worthy who is a young guy and a complete stud. He's a guy who's completely capable of being a prototypical stud 3-4 DT. Furthermore, they're strong at LB ... very strong even. And, their most notable weakness is on the DL ... apart from Worthy. My bet is that if they stick to a 3-4, then it's definitely a sign that Dantonio isn't going to allow Oren Wilson (their starting NT in '09) back on the team ... even though he's voiced a desire to stay.
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3-4's don't have DTs. They do have NTs though. That makes this Mich St breakdown puzzling.
 
rodg12 said:
3-4's don't have DTs. They do have NTs though. That makes this Mich St breakdown puzzling.
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My impression of the 3-4 D is that they would use their best DT as NT. Then put the best 2 of the 3 remaining DL at DE. So makes sense to me especially if they don't feel they have 4 quality DL. But I could be way off.
 
According to Norm Parker, there's "nothing new under the sun" when it comes to defense.

Quote taken from: I-Club Circuit Kicks Off | Hawkeye Nation

The man has been around the block a time or two, and as he told me last night, ‘there’s nothing new under the sun in this game.’
We got to talking about Pat Angerer, AJ Edds and where they might fit into 4-3 and 3-4 schemes. Always one to learn as much as I can whenever I can, I asked Norm about the nuances of those schemes from his point of view. He said “When you played for Butch Pedersen at West Branch, I bet you played a 5-2 defense?” I said yes, we did. “Well, the players that were tackles in that defense are called defensive ends in a 3-4. The players that were defensive ends in that defense, we want to make them sound prettier now so we call them linebackers. And the rest of the players on the field add up to 11. That’s it.”
And that’s Norm Parker.
 
rodg12 said:
3-4's don't have DTs. They do have NTs though. That makes this Mich St breakdown puzzling.
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You're arguing semantic. Not all language used to describe particular schemes in football is universal. Anyhow, the point is this ... Worthy will make an excellent NT for MSU in a 3-4.
 
A 3-4 defense doesnt work in the B10. Too many running teams with good TEs.
Its tough to hold the LOS in the 3-4 against a zone-blocking scheme. I would venture to say that Tony Moeaki having a career day against MICHs defense is a good example of what I'm saying. Once the O-line starts to shift into that zone read blocking, the LBs have to start plugging holes. A little play action boot with a TE going the opposite direction = TD or huge gain.
If your LBs have to play a step back to honor the TE in the passing game, they get pushed back for 4 or 5 yds per running play.
Its a tough proposition.
 
The issue Iowa will have with the "3-4" is figuring out which Lb may be blitzing. Iowa's OL has not excelled against the blitz in recent years so not sure how they will do with the teams mentioned above.

To paraphrase Norm's quote from above, almost all the schemes have someone covering a specific area so it is just a matter of getting that person blocked.. Doesnt matter if he is called a DE, LB or Rover or whatever.

Hayden's teams called Andre Tippett and LeRoy Smith as DEs but they had responsibilities very similar to the OLB, often dropping back in coverage.
 
SLarew said:
The issue Iowa will have with the "3-4" is figuring out which Lb may be blitzing. Iowa's OL has not excelled against the blitz in recent years so not sure how they will do with the teams mentioned above.

To paraphrase Norm's quote from above, almost all the schemes have someone covering a specific area so it is just a matter of getting that person blocked.. Doesnt matter if he is called a DE, LB or Rover or whatever.

Hayden's teams called Andre Tippett and LeRoy Smith as DEs but they had responsibilities very similar to the OLB, often dropping back in coverage.
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Thats why a good running game is bad for a 3-4 defense. I think the O-line hasnt done well against the blitz because of the play at the C position. Bruggs was good at it. Eubanks, not so much. The Center is responsible for the line calls and blitz pick-ups. I think thats why Brian Ferentz excelled, even though he gave up size. I expect James Ferentz to have the same effect. Hopefully.
 
SLarew and lightning -

Great discussion! Thanks.

One thing that I'd add is that Calloway had trouble containing speed guys on the edge last year. Furthermore, personnel continuity was something that hurt the '09 OL ... and that can really impact communication and how they work together ... which also has a big impact on blitz pickup.

The QB is also responsible for making basic audibles and getting guys moved to the right position in order to account for blitz pick-up. If you didn't notice, there was a HUGE difference between how the Hawks handled blitz pick-up late in the season when Stanzi was at the helm and when Vandenberg was at the helm. Eubanks played pretty good ball at the end of the season and I frankly think that the "Stanzi" factor played a bigger role late in the season.

lightning - Perhaps a counter to your claim about Brian Ferentz is that he looked pretty bad against tOSU in 2005 ... part of it being that he totally got eaten up when tOSU brought in their LBs to blitz.
 
Michigan has the players to run multiple sets- a 4-3, a 3-4 or a 3-3-5. It is dumb for them to transition yet again as they keep asking their players to learn yet another new system. Vanbergen, Martin and Roh would make a pretty good 3 man front. Roh could be a good stand up linebacker.
Almost every team in the Big Ten is using some type of 3 man front for their nickel or dime package. It can help teams disguise the blitz, but I really feel like this has been a point of emphasis this spring and will be this fall also.
 
homerHAWKeye777 said:
SLarew and lightning -

Great discussion! Thanks.

One thing that I'd add is that Calloway had trouble containing speed guys on the edge last year. Furthermore, personnel continuity was something that hurt the '09 OL ... and that can really impact communication and how they work together ... which also has a big impact on blitz pickup.

The QB is also responsible for making basic audibles and getting guys moved to the right position in order to account for blitz pick-up. If you didn't notice, there was a HUGE difference between how the Hawks handled blitz pick-up late in the season when Stanzi was at the helm and when Vandenberg was at the helm. Eubanks played pretty good ball at the end of the season and I frankly think that the "Stanzi" factor played a bigger role late in the season.

lightning - Perhaps a counter to your claim about Brian Ferentz is that he looked pretty bad against tOSU in 2005 ... part of it being that he totally got eaten up when tOSU brought in their LBs to blitz.
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Nobody's perfect.
 
As long as Michigan keeps changing things up each season, makes them less likely to be a real factor in teh Big ten race, except in the spoiler role. Whatever they play, Iowa just needs to go to The Big House and come out with a victory. reminder to all... Iowa almost did not get that win at home last season.
 
I would agree I hope Michigan keeps switching each season either Defense of Offense means you are in turmoil as a program as I great Hawkeye coach once said "If it aint broke don't fix it"
 
spudhawk said:
Michigan has the players to run multiple sets- a 4-3, a 3-4 or a 3-3-5. It is dumb for them to transition yet again as they keep asking their players to learn yet another new system. Vanbergen, Martin and Roh would make a pretty good 3 man front. Roh could be a good stand up linebacker.
Almost every team in the Big Ten is using some type of 3 man front for their nickel or dime package. It can help teams disguise the blitz, but I really feel like this has been a point of emphasis this spring and will be this fall also.
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spud -

Am I wrong in thinking that they're awful young in their secondary (for the most part)? They're going to have to rely an awful lot on underclassmen in the secondary from what I can discern. Of course, that is not to say that they still won't have plenty of talent ... it will just be young talent.

I do believe that they have some pretty good guys at LB ... however, I also must say that I haven't be altogether very impressed with their LB play since Rich Rod took over the helm.
 
I think Michigan returns Ezeh, I am sure that they return Mouton at LB. Woolfolk, Cissoko, and the saftey Kouveceks? (sp) also return. The kid whose name I can't spell could play the hybrid spot. Woolfolk can play corner or safety. I think they have plenty of talent in the secondary. I am sure there is a Michigan fan lurking who could fill us in on the roster. I will do some digging.
 
OSU has been experimenting with some 3-4 this spring too. Not sure they will use it very often but I expect to see it some this fall.
 
spudhawk said:
I think Michigan returns Ezeh, I am sure that they return Mouton at LB. Woolfolk, Cissoko, and the saftey Kouveceks? (sp) also return. The kid whose name I can't spell could play the hybrid spot. Woolfolk can play corner or safety. I think they have plenty of talent in the secondary. I am sure there is a Michigan fan lurking who could fill us in on the roster. I will do some digging.
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spud -

Cissoko is off the squad. Furthermore, Brandon Smith, a really talented guy who would have been a great fit at the hybrid spot left the team. And, as we both already know, Warren was kinda dumb and left early.

As for the guys who remain, Woolfolk is at CB however he's a convert there from safety. He's okay but not really all that special.

At safety they have Kovacs and Williams ... I think that both are fairly decent against the run (if the DL is doing their job) however neither really appear to be all that great in coverage. Of course, in defense of Kovacs, he was also a walk-on RS FR last season. Emilien could potentially also play the "hybrid" role too.

Of course, Cameron Gordon, a guy who we were actually pretty close to landing at WR sounds like he was the talk of camp at Michigan. I'm not really surprised ... but he's still going to be pretty green for them.
 
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